Unexplained reduced range

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MotMot
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Post by MotMot »

colonelpurple wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:24 am I charged to 90% for a long drive today, and it says 225 miles. That's based on a month of driving. Lets see how it holds out in the traffic !!
It'll probably go up in traffic!

RashD
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Post by RashD »

I have also noted the range when I first received the car was 292 and now it's plummeted drastically. I do motorway driving and also trips to London. at 100% I get just about 245 'ish and at 80% I get just about 190? I'm getting worried as to what's changed in the range? The car is only 2 months old!
MotMot
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Post by MotMot »

From those figures I’d guess your long term consumption is about 4.2m/kWh? (240/58) it’s on one of the screens.

Mine on delivery showed 315 miles of range!!! Now usually about 210 on an 80% charge - just the figures adjust to your prior usage!
Waldemar
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Post by Waldemar »

I've had my ID3 204 PS 68KwH now for about 4 months and covered about 1400 miles. After a brief flirtatious period of exuberant acceleration to see what it could do I settled into a more easy going driving style in comfort mode.
Though I have not tested it from 100% to 0%, I have charged it to 100% and run it down to about 74 miles left in the batteries. Driven gently the on-board computer is advising its giving me 4.1 miles per KWh. About 240 miles. Pretty good! Compared with 3.4 to 3.6 with a heavy right foot. I charge at home using a 7kw charge point.

Motorways are taken between 55-65mph with the odd burst at 70 ish to overtake. No hardship on the M6 between Birmingham and Manchester with the roadworks. Ambient temps between 13 and 25 degC.

My question is:- Why do VW advise charging to 80% rather than 100%, especially as its designed to cope with fast charging upto 100kw. Cant see why full charging at 7Kw could do any harm.
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

Waldemar wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:46 pm I've had my ID3 204 PS 68KwH now for about 4 months and covered about 1400 miles. After a brief flirtatious period of exuberant acceleration to see what it could do I settled into a more easy going driving style in comfort mode.
Though I have not tested it from 100% to 0%, I have charged it to 100% and run it down to about 74 miles left in the batteries. Driven gently the on-board computer is advising its giving me 4.1 miles per KWh. About 240 miles. Pretty good! Compared with 3.4 to 3.6 with a heavy right foot. I charge at home using a 7kw charge point.

Motorways are taken between 55-65mph with the odd burst at 70 ish to overtake. No hardship on the M6 between Birmingham and Manchester with the roadworks. Ambient temps between 13 and 25 degC.

My question is:- Why do VW advise charging to 80% rather than 100%, especially as its designed to cope with fast charging upto 100kw. Cant see why full charging at 7Kw could do any harm.
Li-Ion traction batteries suffer less degradation if not charged to full then emptied to empty. All manufacturers recommend this. And if you do charge past 80% you should time it so that the battery is above 80% for the shortest time possible and only do it when it's absolutely essential.
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Post by Deleted User 192 »

Waldemar wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:46 pm Why do VW advise charging to 80% rather than 100%, especially as its designed to cope with fast charging upto 100kw. Cant see why full charging at 7Kw could do any harm.

Here's what they say: https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/electri ... ranty.html

From other things I've read, it's more that the buffer is small and Li-Ion batteries don't like being kept fully charged for lengths of time - I don't think charging via AC or DC has much to do with it.
yogiran
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Post by yogiran »

I have the ist edition Max, 58kw, sept. 2020. Initially when charging to100% i would get 440 to 450 kilometers potential range. Now last 2 times I got just under 400 km and last one 380km potential range. I normally charge 80 to 90%.
Anyone else having this issue with charging? I have used 50kw public chargers.
Thanks
LongMynd
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Post by LongMynd »

I appreciate that the car can only predict the range based on recent or current driving experience (or a combination of both).
From new we charged our 77kWh ID.3 very slowly on a normal mains three pin plug and charged to 80%. Extrapolating from the predicted range when charged to 80% we could have expected a range on 100% of 360 miles.

Then we drove to France, cruising at 110 k.p.h through horrendous heavy rain. I would expect driving under such conditions to increase the consumption of any car.
The day after arriving at our destination in the mountains we drove fairly gently down the mountain and back up again.
We charged to 80%
The predicted range at 80% was 195 miles. Which in theory on 100% would give 243 miles .

So my question now is: over what time period does the ID.3 monitor consumption in order to calculate a predicted range?
Does it depend on your driving pattern and driving conditions over the last hour, the last day, or what?

I sure hope that the change from 360 to 243 does not reflect battery degradation, but just driving conditions.

Charles
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Post by Deleted User 192 »

LongMynd wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:18 pm So my question now is: over what time period does the ID.3 monitor consumption in order to calculate a predicted range?
Does it depend on your driving pattern and driving conditions over the last hour, the last day, or what?

I don't think VW have told anyone, but am absolutely certain the change in your numbers won't be degradation.
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Post by G43FAN »

Given your description of events, the 'Most recent' consumption was driving back Up the mountain. It's that recent consumption that will kill your predicted mileage. Get in it, regen down the mountain and park up.. you're predicted range should shoot up.
LongMynd
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Post by LongMynd »

Thanks for the comments.
I'll try to remember to post an update.

Charles
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colonelpurple
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Post by colonelpurple »

LongMynd wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:18 pm
So my question now is: over what time period does the ID.3 monitor consumption in order to calculate a predicted range?
Does it depend on your driving pattern and driving conditions over the last hour, the last day, or what?

I sure hope that the change from 360 to 243 does not reflect battery degradation, but just driving conditions.

Charles
The ID3 predicts based on your past behaviour, it does not extrapolate forward

It has three average consumptions:
1. Since start
2. Since charge
3. Since new

I am not sure how it combines them to give a prediction, but there is some algorithm

I find it heavily influenced by what i did yesterday, and somewhat by what I've done since the car was new

What is really interesting is how it changes as we go into winter. I am quite excited to see the range inevitably going down :shock:
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

From my experience and posts over recent months its maybe less than 50 miles with the most recent in the guessorithm accounting for the biggest proportion of the prediction.
Not degradation, just change in ambient and journey type!
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Post by Deleted User 192 »

colonelpurple wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:47 am The ID3 predicts based on your past behaviour, it does not extrapolate forward

It has three average consumptions:
1. Since start
2. Since charge
3. Since new

I am not sure how it combines them to give a prediction, but there is some algorithm

I find it heavily influenced by what i did yesterday, and somewhat by what I've done since the car was new

What is really interesting is how it changes as we go into winter. I am quite excited to see the range inevitably going down :shock:

It also changes in real time if you switch between Eco/Comfort/Sport - not by much though.
LongMynd
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Post by LongMynd »

Screenshot 2021-10-15 at 9.26.51.png

Screenshot 2021-10-15 at 9.26.51.png

I promised an update on our French trip.
You may remember that from new with general UK driving we had a predicted maximum range of 360 miles. After battling through horrendous rain at 110 kph in France the maximum range fell to 243. Our last day in France we did a couple of hours a bit more gently (90-100 kph with patchy mist) and since then have had five days in the UK. Predicted range is now 290.
Tronity have a rather sinister looking graph called battery degradation, which suggested that our battery had degraded by over 30%, so the car would become a dead brick in under a year. (see graph). A much more sensibly labelled graph describes "range" and that suggests that we have recouped much of what we lost and should stabilise at near 300 miles. That I am happy with.
As an extra tit-bit we did one trip down the mountain and back up again. Going down used 2% of batter and our "range" increased by 39 Km. Going back up the hill used 13% of battery.
So Hills, speed & rain.

Screenshot 2021-10-15 at 9.27.05.png

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Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

Yeah those graphs... I'm not sure what they measure or mean.

All the best

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Post by Deleted User 192 »

Not sure what any of those graphs prove (or don’t prove).
G43FAN

Post by G43FAN »

If anyone can pick through this and understand it let me know..

"The battery degradation information in TRONITY should be interpreted as an indicator, as we take the battery charges as a basis and the calculated ranges. Of course, both are slightly impacted across the seasons. However the overall goal remains, when you take a longer period of time, you can derive an indicator of a possible battery misbehavior or a major degradation."

https://help.tronity.io/hc/en-us/articl ... on-Monitor
beacon39
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Post by beacon39 »

I think the ID.3 calculates remaining range using relatively recent data. Why would it calculate the range based on driving circumstances of a month or a year ago? It must surely assume you're going to carry on driving as you were at the last calculation.

I took my car up to the base of the highest mountain in S Wales from Cardiff, a climb of over 400 m. The distance travelled was just over 30 miles in about 1 hour. My range reduced by almost 60 miles. On the return trip, I added 9 miles to the range.
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LongMynd
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Post by LongMynd »

If you look at the graph of range, it would seem that the "range reduction" occurred pretty quickly. We drove that fast and in awful rain throughout the 2nd and by the 3rd the ID predicted range was right down. So range reduction reflects very recent driving, maybe the lat 24 hours.
Interestingly "range gain" seemed to occur more slowly between the 10th and the 15th we had no very high speed driving and climbed no mountains.
I suppose that in fairness to VW this is the right way round. We don't want to be caught out with a flat battery so it is better to underestimate the range than overestimate it. And if our driving style and driving conditions fluctuate then it is likely that the car will be tending to "play safe".
Charles
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