8 week ownership thoughts.

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RS6484
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Post by RS6484 »

Had my Max Pro for 8 weeks so thought I'd check my charging costs and usage. Biggest change for me is getting used to taking every opportunity to charge the car as I don't have a home charger. It's probably overkill at present but not inconvenient at all. I've also used as many different networks as I can regardless of cost but now seem to have settled on GeniePoint at our local Morrisons. Compared to my previous Land Rover Discovery Sport I have spent just under 50% on the mileage completed - only 900 miles but a great start. I know I can do better by using cheaper charging networks all the time of course; I have no intention of installing a home charger and only use a granny charger occasionally.

Our local Tesco only have 7kW PodPoint charging but one a little further away has 50kW as well and I've used this a couple of times, an 8p saving over Morrisons. My best deal was Wickes who have a free to use 7kW charger and my 17min shopping trip added nearly 2kW which is a nice little discount on the £12 I spent there - small things add up.

Love the car which is very comfortable, has enough space for both our grand-children's car seats and drives very well. We head off on our first long trip (for us) at the end of the month, for three days in Yorkshire. A clear shortage of rapid chargers in the area we are going has been eased by finding a cottage (on ZapMap) with 7kW charging - we will see how things go.

epicwinningmaz
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Post by epicwinningmaz »

Glad you like the car! What’s the reason for not getting a charger installed?
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monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

metcast wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:03 am Glad you like the car! What’s the reason for not getting a charger installed?
I'm wondering that too. Part of my reasoning for going EV was to save 90% at the pumps and be minimally inconvenienced by very occasional charging away from home on very long journeys. To only be saving 50% and face a whole lot of inconvenience in doing so seems not so good to be honest.

Fair do's if you don't have a drive or you rent etc, but if you do have the facilities, a home charger and overnight rates tariff will pay for itself in under a year even if you're doing 6k miles PA.
Cupra Born V2 e-boost 230ps Aurora Blue, replaced ID3 PP Family

Audi S3 - because I hate rapid charging for long distance driving.

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epicwinningmaz
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Post by epicwinningmaz »

monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:33 am
metcast wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:03 am Glad you like the car! What’s the reason for not getting a charger installed?
I'm wondering that too. Part of my reasoning for going EV was to save 90% at the pumps and be minimally inconvenienced by very occasional charging away from home on very long journeys. To only be saving 50% and face a whole lot of inconvenience in doing so seems not so good to be honest.

Fair do's if you don't have a drive or you rent etc, but if you do have the facilities, a home charger and overnight rates tariff will pay for itself in under a year even if you're doing 6k miles PA.
Yep! If needed you can rent it out using services like Co-Charger or PlugShare to recuperate costs faster
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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

metcast wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:03 am Glad you like the car! What’s the reason for not getting a charger installed?
May be because for many people it is more of a convenience than cost effective.
I would just include it as a cost of the car,

May be people like me need to research which charger to buy, reliability, maintenance costs and features.

If one pays £550 for the charger what is the pay back time over using public chargers? May be years.
How much do public chargers cost relative to home electricity? Is it free, twice or 3x?
It depends on where you live and tariffs.

£550 is around two years of diesel for me. On a summer's day I get the 68mpg BMW claim.

I doubt most people save money buying electric (unless they live in congestion charge zones).
The pay back time for me compared to an ICE is probably 8-10 years, or even never.
But many people do not look at pay back. It is for pleasure and to obtain fake green credentials!

I ordered an ID3 for my wife last Thursday to replace a diesel disaster Golf. Mechatronic and EGR failure (latter due to emissions software).
All repaired privately and sold. I hope the VW legal action covers the costs!

I stand corrected as DTD can be beaten. But it is hard work and may not be worth it for many!
I guess I have until March to get a home charger. I see no point in a February delivery.
9 Sep 21 Ordered ID.3 Family Pro, Stonewashed Blue & East Derry
13 Sep 21 PCP approved. VW No: 3131xxxx
24 Sep 21 Temp build wk43, conf' 46
22 Nov 21 Conf' build wk 49
10 Jan 22 Code 38 Awaiting ship-release (wk48 build)
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

Cherry wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:51 am £550 is around two years of diesel for me. On a summer's day I get the 68mpg BMW claim.
That’s an unusually low mileage you’re doing - 3,400 miles a year?
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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

Utumno wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 11:05 am
Cherry wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:51 am £550 is around two years of diesel for me. On a summer's day I get the 68mpg BMW claim.
That’s an unusually low mileage you’re doing - 3,400 miles a year?
I used to do 6,000 miles and last year in lock down was barely 2,000.
I have worked from home for 25 years,

May be I should go back to my 27 year old Mazda MX3 that has been SORN for 7 years,
Stupidly, I did not disconnect the battery and now it's dead.
Now my youngest son is at university 2,000 miles will be my norm.
No more shared 35 mile return trip school runs. I used to curse it, but now miss it.
This was a 28mpg car, too expensive for school runs.

I just noticed DTD have now increased all their prices for ID3, Now just 7% real dealer discount off List Price of Family Pro. £174.40 less discount for car with metallic paint and East Derry Alloys.
9 Sep 21 Ordered ID.3 Family Pro, Stonewashed Blue & East Derry
13 Sep 21 PCP approved. VW No: 3131xxxx
24 Sep 21 Temp build wk43, conf' 46
22 Nov 21 Conf' build wk 49
10 Jan 22 Code 38 Awaiting ship-release (wk48 build)
01 March preferred collection
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

I hear you on lockdown miles!

When I was running costs for ICE vs BEV the thing that made the cost savings really eye opening were the mileage, because it’s multiplicative. I typically do 12,000 miles a year on average and that was about £2100 a year in dinosaur juice. 12,000 miles on Octopus Go is so hopelessly cheap that it made the cost of a home charger a no-brainer
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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

Utumno wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:12 pm I hear you on lockdown miles!

When I was running costs for ICE vs BEV the thing that made the cost savings really eye opening were the mileage, because it’s multiplicative. I typically do 12,000 miles a year on average and that was about £2100 a year in dinosaur juice. 12,000 miles on Octopus Go is so hopelessly cheap that it made the cost of a home charger a no-brainer
For high mileage EV is worth it. For low mileage, it really is not. But it is not all about money, (but I still want the best discount :D ) so my wife can have an EV first (she does 6k miles) and I may follow soon after.
9 Sep 21 Ordered ID.3 Family Pro, Stonewashed Blue & East Derry
13 Sep 21 PCP approved. VW No: 3131xxxx
24 Sep 21 Temp build wk43, conf' 46
22 Nov 21 Conf' build wk 49
10 Jan 22 Code 38 Awaiting ship-release (wk48 build)
01 March preferred collection
rawws
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Post by rawws »

Cherry wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:30 pm
Utumno wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:12 pm I hear you on lockdown miles!

When I was running costs for ICE vs BEV the thing that made the cost savings really eye opening were the mileage, because it’s multiplicative. I typically do 12,000 miles a year on average and that was about £2100 a year in dinosaur juice. 12,000 miles on Octopus Go is so hopelessly cheap that it made the cost of a home charger a no-brainer
For high mileage EV is worth it. For low mileage, it really is not. But it is not all about money, (but I still want the best discount :D ) so my wife can have an EV first (she does 6k miles) and I may follow soon after.
Agree, i have ID3 business trim on order and cant have a home charger and not going to have one i have a bp pulse 150kw charger and 4 other rapid chargers within 4 miles and 7kw tesco pod point also working from home so not much mileage around 3000 miles a year. Many people think not having a home charge means deal breaker for having an EV but if you look at it really depends on your mileage and the location you live public charger availability . Sure home charger is good and convenient but depends where you live and how much you drive
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monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Cherry wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:51 am
I doubt most people save money buying electric (unless they live in congestion charge zones).
The pay back time for me compared to an ICE is probably 8-10 years, or even never.
But many people do not look at pay back. It is for pleasure and to obtain fake green credentials!
That "payback" time is dependent on what you're used to paying out for a car. It sounds like (from your diesel Golf issues) you're used to buying a car and keeping it a long time or buying a used car and keeping it well out of warranty.

If you're used to buying the likes of a performance Golf or some other £30k ish car every 3 years then the upfront cost differences and depreciation profile are not far apart.

For me, our Life and Family ID3s cost about the same as a discounted new Golf GTD, the kind of car I'm used to buying. I expect the ID3s to be depreciating no more than £300pm each while I have them, similar expectations for a Golf GTD.

So the purchase/depreciation cost is about the same. However, my running costs are about £18pm extra on my electricity bill vs £220pm petrol/diesel. For me, those 2 ID3s are saving me a genuine £200 pm at the pumps and not costing me any more to own. I'm also saving in VED (before we had the 2 ID3s, we had a Polo GTI @£155pa and A4 Avant @£475pa) to the tune of £50pm equivalent.

If you're used to buying a 4-5 year old £12k Golf and you swapped to a new £28-30k ID3 then overall you might be no better off even with predominantly home charging. If you're used to buying new £28-30k ICE cars and doing average miles, a Life/Family ID3 will save you money overall (in fuelling/VED) if you have a home charger and a tariff like Octopus GO for all your charging.

I don't see that so much with the higher spec ID3s that don't fall under the grant threshold. The little extra they give in equipment seem to come at a disproportionately high price IMO, some of that is not getting the grant.
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Post by Cherry »

I compare a new ICE to a new EV and my low mileage. Given the EV costs a lot more than an "equivalent" ICE and high cost of a home charger, my low mileage does not make it worth while from a cost point to buy an EV. For high mileage it does.

Yes, I usually buy a new car, use it for 10 years and "throw it away" (except I kept the MX3). I had a 5 year service pack with BMW and have not serviced it for 2 years now due to low mileage. So, by year 10, I need to replace it. I only pay £20 a year vehicle excise duty. My fuel costs are less than £225 a year. There is no financial reason to change (like my 30 year old boiler - every gas man states "no payback"). But, I will move to EV anyway to spend my money! I will see how my wife gets on with her ID.3 when it arrives. I am sure the government will force me to change anyway.
9 Sep 21 Ordered ID.3 Family Pro, Stonewashed Blue & East Derry
13 Sep 21 PCP approved. VW No: 3131xxxx
24 Sep 21 Temp build wk43, conf' 46
22 Nov 21 Conf' build wk 49
10 Jan 22 Code 38 Awaiting ship-release (wk48 build)
01 March preferred collection
monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Are you comparing a new EV to an equivalent new ICE though? You don't seem to be.

Without naming alternative cars, you're inferring that the EVs will cost more.

For me, the closest ICE equivalent is the Golf GTD - the Family ID3 is moderately better equipped as standard vs GTD if you buy the Derry alloys. The Life is moderately worse specced (missing out on dual climate and adaptive headlights). The only thing the GTD has over them is front sports seats.

Power and performance is almost identical between Pro Performance and GTD, they're same size/class of car (although cabin room in ID3 is much better).

Price wise with decent discount (e.g. DTD), there is a few hundred quid in it - when I bought my Family for £28250, the GTD was around £28400 on DTD.

What ICE equivalent to the ID3 would you consider to be significantly cheaper than the ID3?

On the VED front, you are comparing old to new - you would not get £20 VED on any brand new diesel now. There's a showroom CO2 tax on new ICE cars and then they pay a standard (£160 currently, I think) amount, or £475 luxury VED a year for 6 years if the RRP is over £40k (regardless of how much you actually paid for it new or used).

It might take you more than a year to get a home charger to pay for itself on your own mileage, but you should put a price on convenience too - rolling up at Tesco and hoping that all the chargers aren't taken when you arrive and have to kill an hour to get 25 miles charge on, faffing with your own cable etc. Or you go out of your way to a fast charger for 45 mins 20% to 80% at £15 instead of £1.80at home.

You're getting your wife an EV and she does 6k miles a year. Even for her, the home charger would shortly pay for itself and not inconvenience her:

6k miles per annum at probably realistic 40mpg average = 150 Gallons per year. Current price of a gallon of petrol/diesel is around £.6.30. Annual diesel spend = £945 pa. On Octopus GO you'd be paying £86 based on 6000 miles at 5p per kWh overnight and an easily achievable 3.5 miles per kWh. Even averaging 60mpg on those 6k miles, that charger will just about be paid for in year 1 on your wife's miles.
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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

I purchased Family Pro (wife wanted the glass roof). What is the equivalent VW ICE? Is there one?
May be compare the ID.3 Life to a Golf Life? Which battery size and engine do we compare?
Do we have to add alloys to the ID3 given they are standard on the Golf?
What about more expensive models? Should be consider the government grants?
If there is no grant, what is the extra cost? £6k minimum. Average fuel is £1,000 per year for £8k miles. so c.7 years for pay back just for fuel.

Your price is not available. You got a great deal because of a grant reduction .
DTD have just increased their price for ID.3.

Of all the cars I think ID.3 is closer to equivalent ICE cars from the same manufacturer.

Make it easier and compare e-Niro 2 to Niro (grant available).
What is the price differential in cars? What is the pay back?

How about comparing the new BMW i4 to ICE equivalent? There is no government grant here.
What is the price differential in cars? What is the pay back time?

Zero excise duty for EV will not last. How will roads be funded?
EV are expensive. Why give grants to people who can afford a new EV?
Give grants to take older cars off the road instead.
Freebies for the rich and hammer the poor! I will take the £2,500, thanks (but, I think it is wrong).
9 Sep 21 Ordered ID.3 Family Pro, Stonewashed Blue & East Derry
13 Sep 21 PCP approved. VW No: 3131xxxx
24 Sep 21 Temp build wk43, conf' 46
22 Nov 21 Conf' build wk 49
10 Jan 22 Code 38 Awaiting ship-release (wk48 build)
01 March preferred collection
rikimaru
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Post by rikimaru »

Cherry wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:07 pm I purchased Family Pro (wife wanted the glass roof). What is the equivalent VW ICE? Is there one?
May be compare the ID.3 Life to a Golf Life? Which battery size and engine do we compare?
Do we have to add alloys to the ID3 given they are standard on the Golf?
What about more expensive models? Should be consider the government grants?
If there is no grant, what is the extra cost? £6k minimum. Average fuel is £1,000 per year for £8k miles. so c.7 years for pay back just for fuel.

Your price is not available. You got a great deal because of a grant reduction .
DTD have just increased their price for ID.3.

Of all the cars I think ID.3 is closer to equivalent ICE cars from the same manufacturer.

Make it easier and compare e-Niro 2 to Niro (grant available).
What is the price differential in cars? What is the pay back?

How about comparing the new BMW i4 to ICE equivalent? There is no government grant here.
What is the price differential in cars? What is the pay back time?

Zero excise duty for EV will not last. How will roads be funded?
EV are expensive. Why give grants to people who can afford a new EV?
Give grants to take older cars off the road instead.
Freebies for the rich and hammer the poor! I will take the £2,500, thanks (but, I think it is wrong).
Why is your point exactly? They’re saying it probably works out cheaper and more convenient for you to install a home charger. Nothing about how things will play out in the long run (yes, subsidies will end but EVs will get cheaper too as the tech matures).
16 Sep: ID3 Max in Moonstone Grey. BW 40 confirmed. ETA early Dec.
...lots of bad info and delays...
27 April: at port. ETA end of May.
Delivery ETA: 18 May!
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

Cherry wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:30 pm
Utumno wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:12 pm I hear you on lockdown miles!

When I was running costs for ICE vs BEV the thing that made the cost savings really eye opening were the mileage, because it’s multiplicative. I typically do 12,000 miles a year on average and that was about £2100 a year in dinosaur juice. 12,000 miles on Octopus Go is so hopelessly cheap that it made the cost of a home charger a no-brainer
For high mileage EV is worth it. For low mileage, it really is not. But it is not all about money, (but I still want the best discount :D ) so my wife can have an EV first (she does 6k miles) and I may follow soon after.

National average miles for an average household in the UK is ~12,000 miles (pandemic notwithstanding)

At 12,000 miles pa with home charging and a good EV tariff the fuel savings are huge - thousands of pounds a year.

Low mileages like yours, I agree much less so.
Last edited by Utumno on Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Cherry wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:07 pm I purchased Family Pro (wife wanted the glass roof). What is the equivalent VW ICE? Is there one?
May be compare the ID.3 Life to a Golf Life? Which battery size and engine do we compare?
Do we have to add alloys to the ID3 given they are standard on the Golf?
What about more expensive models? Should be consider the government grants?
If there is no grant, what is the extra cost? £6k minimum. Average fuel is £1,000 per year for £8k miles. so c.7 years for pay back just for fuel.

Your price is not available. You got a great deal because of a grant reduction .
DTD have just increased their price for ID.3.

Of all the cars I think ID.3 is closer to equivalent ICE cars from the same manufacturer.

Make it easier and compare e-Niro 2 to Niro (grant available).
What is the price differential in cars? What is the pay back?

How about comparing the new BMW i4 to ICE equivalent? There is no government grant here.
What is the price differential in cars? What is the pay back time?

Zero excise duty for EV will not last. How will roads be funded?
EV are expensive. Why give grants to people who can afford a new EV?
Give grants to take older cars off the road instead.
Freebies for the rich and hammer the poor! I will take the £2,500, thanks (but, I think it is wrong).
I've already made it clear what I consider the nearest ICE equivalent is to an ID3 Pro-performance - the Golf GTD, in both performance and equipment levels. The achievable price differential between the 2 is coppers after all incentives are accounted for. The Golf Life is significantly less well equipped than the ID3 Life and has access to much less powerful engines.

You're chosing to ignore the justified comparison I made even though it demonstrates marginal price differences between them. I included the purchase of 18" Derrys on the ID3 in the price compared with Golf GTD that already has them. On that basis I think it's pretty much the fairest comparison out there to demonstrate a lack of cost gap between ICE and EV for equivalent cars.

There's also the potential to save significantly on the fuel bill. If you have the facilities to do so and choose not to buy a home charger that could save £900 a year on your wife's mileage vs a 40mpg average petrol/diesel then you're really cutting your nose off to spite your face. It would go a long way to subsidise the cost of an EV.

On the basis of the above, I don't consider the ID3 in Life/Family guise to be more expensive than the ICE equivalent (Golf GTD).

If you want to compare a 204ps IDE Life to a 1.0 115ps Golf Life because they share the Word "Life" in their description, you know that's not right.

Getting people to trade in their 10 year old car that they bought at 6 years old for a third of new RRP is always going to be a big ask. Getting someone to pay £28k instead of £10k for their next car isn't going to happen for most, unless you start giving out £15k grants - that's just not going to happen. The people buying older cars will just have to wait for a 6 year old ID3 or e-Niro. As ageing stock filters through, there will be EVs for all budgets in future.

You can't give grants to people buying old EVs if there are no old EVs to buy right now (save for MK1 Leafs with woeful range). Why should a single car get grants applied St multiple stages of its life? Applying when new is the best timing for giving a grant, when it would be at its most expensive.

It does sound like you're begrudging the purchase of this Family for the wife and its way beyond what you'd normally pay for a car. If that's the case then you are comparing apples with oranges and calling oranges significantly more expensive.

Yes the £0 VED won't last (new EVs will be liable to VED from 2025, existing ones won't pay it). Not sure what your point is there though. £20 VED for cars like the one you currently own ceased in 2017 for new ones. The Government incentivised people into diesels (due to lower CO2) with low/no VED from around 2012 to 2017 (my 2013 Golf GTD attracted £20 VED, the wife's 2015 A1 1.6TDI had £0 VED), and now the government is tempting us into EVs with similar incentives. Grab them while you can.
Cupra Born V2 e-boost 230ps Aurora Blue, replaced ID3 PP Family

Audi S3 - because I hate rapid charging for long distance driving.

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Post by monkeyhanger »

Utumno wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:44 pm
National average miles for an average driver in the UK is 12,000 miles (pandemic notwithstanding)

At 12,000 miles pa with home charging and a good EV tariff the fuel savings are huge - thousands of pounds a year.

Low mileages like yours, I agree much less so.
At mileages like his wife will be doing (6k miles pa) a charger will pay for itself in less than a year. Even at his tiny 2k miles pa, a home charger wi pay for itself in less than 3 years, not to mention being massively more convenient. Even on a 3 year payback I'd buy the charger. 15 year payback on solar panels for my roof? Not so much.

That charger is a long term investment - we'll all be buying EVs for the forseeable from 2030, and most people in EVs now will profess to never going back to ICE. These chargers aren't rigged to blow at 3 years, chances are, most people will get 10+ years out of them.

Even at low miles if you have off-street parking and the ability to fit a charger, and can access an Octopus GO style tariff, buying a charger doesn't take a ridiculous period of time to be cost effective.
Cupra Born V2 e-boost 230ps Aurora Blue, replaced ID3 PP Family

Audi S3 - because I hate rapid charging for long distance driving.

Octopus referral: https://share.octopus.energy/lush-fawn-565
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

Can’t argue with any of that!

Although I’m sure Cherry will 😀
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Post by Cherry »

monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:47 pm
I've already made it clear what I consider the nearest ICE equivalent is to an ID3 Pro-performance - the Golf GTD, in both performance and equipment levels. The achievable price differential between the 2 is coppers after all incentives are accounted for. The Golf Life is significantly less well equipped than the ID3 Life and has access to much less powerful engines.

You're chosing to ignore the justified comparison I made even though it demonstrates marginal price differences between them. I included the purchase of 18" Derrys on the ID3 in the price compared with Golf GTD that already has them. On that basis I think it's pretty much the fairest comparison out there to demonstrate a lack of cost gap between ICE and EV for equivalent cars.

There's also the potential to save significantly on the fuel bill. If you have the facilities to do so and choose not to buy a home charger that could save £900 a year on your wife's mileage vs a 40mpg average petrol/diesel then you're really cutting your nose off to spite your face. It would go a long way to subsidise the cost of an EV.

On the basis of the above, I don't consider the ID3 in Life/Family guise to be more expensive than the ICE equivalent (Golf GTD).

If you want to compare a 204ps IDE Life to a 1.0 115ps Golf Life because they share the Word "Life" in their description, you know that's not right.

Getting people to trade in their 10 year old car that they bought at 6 years old for a third of new RRP is always going to be a big ask. Getting someone to pay £28k instead of £10k for their next car isn't going to happen for most, unless you start giving out £15k grants - that's just not going to happen. The people buying older cars will just have to wait for a 6 year old ID3 or e-Niro. As ageing stock filters through, there will be EVs for all budgets in future.

You can't give grants to people buying old EVs if there are no old EVs to buy right now (save for MK1 Leafs with woeful range). Why should a single car get grants applied St multiple stages of its life? Applying when new is the best timing for giving a grant, when it would be at its most expensive.

It does sound like you're begrudging the purchase of this Family for the wife and its way beyond what you'd normally pay for a car. If that's the case then you are comparing apples with oranges and calling oranges significantly more expensive.

Yes the £0 VED won't last (new EVs will be liable to VED from 2025, existing ones won't pay it). Not sure what your point is there though. £20 VED for cars like the one you currently own ceased in 2017 for new ones. The Government incentivised people into diesels (due to lower CO2) with low/no VED from around 2012 to 2017 (my 2013 Golf GTD attracted £20 VED, the wife's 2015 A1 1.6TDI had £0 VED), and now the government is tempting us into EVs with similar incentives. Grab them while you can.
Wow! I am not begrudged at all. I told her she had to get alloys (steel wheels are horrible) and metallic paint. I think with key-less entry she will lose her keys and the roof may crack by stones, knowing her luck.

There is no need to get personal. You have made false assumptions. My BMW cost far more than the ID3 Family all those years ago and has £7k extras. This is why I keep my cars for 10 years. I spent more than ID3 prices for a car for myself. Luckily, in 8 years all I have changed are brake pads and tyres (I had a basic 5 year service pack). I am looking at the i4. What is the equivalent ICE? Look at the price differences. No grant and no pay-back. I accept that. For me, electric will always be more expensive.

One cannot really compare engines. The range of EV is nowhere near a full tank, so should you consider the 77kw battery or wait to compare a 150kw battery! Why not?

As for mpg, her old Golf DSG Match 1.6 TDi would do over c.64mpg on long journeys and 50mpg in the city, not 40 mpg.
My diesel does 68mpg or 50+ mpg in the city. On a summer's day I have achieved over 70mpg on a 35 mile school run return trip.

I do not agree average mileage is 12k. I believe it is less than 8k. For 8k this is less than £1k fuel a year based on just 50mg diesel at todays high prices. Based on this, if a car costs £4k more, it is over 5 years for fuel payback, ignoring the home charger cost.

This link claims 7,400 miles, pre-covid in 2019 for private cars.
https://www.themoneyedit.com/insurance/ ... -in-the-uk

EV costs on average 14% more (or £116) to insure than ICE.
https://www.motortrader.com/motor-trade ... 21-06-2019

I would compare Life -v- Life and not a GTD. I think this is what VW thought when creating a replacement, else they would use different labels. You cannot directly compare specs of an ICE and EV. If you want to do this you need to get a battery size which provides an equivalent range as an ICE tank (150kw). if you consider "powerful engine" then consider range. Electric accelerate quicker. It is different technology. You need to wait for a 150kw battery. It is clearly a pointless comparison. As I said I find the price differential with Golf and ID3 is low (and the £1750 PCP scam makes it so low. But, this is not the same with other manufacturers.

Consider e-Niro (compare with Niro), Zoe (compare with Clio), Leaf and Kona with ICE equivalents. What are the price differences? Please state them. They are not insignificant. As I said, VW may be the lowest.

I would give grants to take old cars off the road to buy newer petrol cars and not provide grants for EV at all.
It is better to have all less polluting petrol/diesel cars than the middle class have EV and the poor stuck with old cars and hit with congestion charge diesel charge and higher excise duty. If you can afford £28k on a car, you can afford an extra £2.5k and do not need a grant. But £2.5k to a low income family is a lot and they could buy a less polluting car and have their old car scrapped. (What, but I am a Tory!) I would have purchased the ID3 even if there was no grant. I await compensation from diesel gate!

I do not believe EV cars are as green as claimed. Lithium mining is not green and mined with dirty diesel. Electricity used to power EV is not often generated green and is merely a transfer of emissions. The production is not green and old cars are scrapped with plenty of life in them meaning unnecessary energy use and emissions in making new EV cars to scrap cars with plenty of life in them.

But, my next car will an EV and I do not expect any payback. It will not be purchased to save money.
My wife will have her ID.3. It seems a good car. I viewed it as a Golf replacement.
But, I am certain I will not have an ID3 as my next car!
9 Sep 21 Ordered ID.3 Family Pro, Stonewashed Blue & East Derry
13 Sep 21 PCP approved. VW No: 3131xxxx
24 Sep 21 Temp build wk43, conf' 46
22 Nov 21 Conf' build wk 49
10 Jan 22 Code 38 Awaiting ship-release (wk48 build)
01 March preferred collection
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