Range declining with cooler temperatures

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itsjon
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Post by itsjon »

any consensus / conclusions yet ?

If the pre-heating option draws significantly more power compared to a tiny electric wall wart style ceramic style heater then its plausible to assume something much bigger is making use of the energy.

Or - the process is inefficient.

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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

Im not sure that pre heating the cabin is comparable with that type of heater.
What we see from the threads is that heating can account for maybe 2-5 kW and that is not unreasonable when you think of the mass you are heating up and the amount of glass that is not double glazed like a house.
The heater you are showing has a capacity of 0.5kW. That incidently looks good for what it is.
I don't think the heating system is inefficient. I think it has a high initial current draw and energy consumption though which may be revisited in SW updates.
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

Just thought I would a note.
When I turn the heating on I get around 20 mile immediate reduction in range. That equates to about 5kW. These numbers we see in the threads fit well together.
All the more reason to pre heat plugged in.
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sidehaas
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Post by sidehaas »

20 miles is approx 5kWh, that says nothing about the power draw in kw. The power draw to consume 5kwh depends entirely on how long it is operating at that power for.
5kW seems extremely high for cabin HVAC.
Re: the battery preheating, has anyone actually tried the suggestion I gave up thread to go out and turn on with the car on/off button while still plugged in, or knows for definite whether it would work?
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Post by monkeyhanger »

I'd agree that the suggestion that the ID3 has a cabin heater that can draw 5kWh is unfeasible to me. The ducting couldn't take air that hot and neither could the windscreen (strong heating inside with a 0C outside surface temp is a recipe for disaster.

The Golf GTD has a 1.5kWh auxiliary heater to take care of cabin heating until the engine warms up (and doesn't pull any combustion derived heat until the engine is warm) and can then divert combustion derived heat to the cabin. No reason to believe the ID3 would have a more powerful heater for the cabin.

2kWh cabin/8kWh battery array heating I could believe, but 5kWh each? I really don't think so.
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

sidehaas wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:24 pm 20 miles is approx 5kWh, that says nothing about the power draw in kw. The power draw to consume 5kwh depends entirely on how long it is operating at that power for.
5kW seems extremely high for cabin HVAC.
Re: the battery preheating, has anyone actually tried the suggestion I gave up thread to go out and turn on with the car on/off button while still plugged in, or knows for definite whether it would work?
4 miles/kW The initial draw could well be 5kW.
Not sustainable maybe but the figure the car initially reports and that is when the range drops 20 miles. I dont think we have seen any average consumptions in kW from the heater. My point was that the car reports 20 mile reduction in range.
Its a 3 phase 400 volt system so an initial 5KW take up is not impossible if the heater operates on all 3 phases. Does anyone know if the heater is single or 3 phase?
Scott seems sure there is no battery pre heating.
Yesterday I preheated the cabin on a 1C morning plugged in for 30 mins. The green bar was only on half measure when I drove off and took 15 minutes or so to reach normal length. I would have thought if any battery preheating had taken place that would have appeared a little different.
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Post by steviebabes »

I had ours on charge yesterday, outside temperature about 4 degrees. charging at 7kWh giving 23 MPH. When I switched on aircon including screen heating this dropped to 17 MPH, a 26% decrease. Not sure if my maths is correct but this means the cabin and screen heating has 'stolen' 1.82 kWh from the battery. This sounds about right to me.
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

After the initial surge I agree.
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sidehaas
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Post by sidehaas »

Daveion wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:08 pm
sidehaas wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:24 pm 20 miles is approx 5kWh, that says nothing about the power draw in kw. The power draw to consume 5kwh depends entirely on how long it is operating at that power for.
5kW seems extremely high for cabin HVAC.
Re: the battery preheating, has anyone actually tried the suggestion I gave up thread to go out and turn on with the car on/off button while still plugged in, or knows for definite whether it would work?
4 miles/kW The initial draw could well be 5kW.
Not sustainable maybe but the figure the car initially reports and that is when the range drops 20 miles. I dont think we have seen any average consumptions in kW from the heater. My point was that the car reports 20 mile reduction in range.
Its a 3 phase 400 volt system so an initial 5KW take up is not impossible if the heater operates on all 3 phases. Does anyone know if the heater is single or 3 phase?
Scott seems sure there is no battery pre heating.
Yesterday I preheated the cabin on a 1C morning plugged in for 30 mins. The green bar was only on half measure when I drove off and took 15 minutes or so to reach normal length. I would have thought if any battery preheating had taken place that would have appeared a little different.
Sorry, don't wish to be pedantic but your car doesn't do 4 miles/kW, it does 4 miles/kWh. The distinction is important. One is an instantaneous power draw and the other is a quantity of energy (power * time.)
If the aircon drew 5 kW the whole time (just for illustration) then it would draw 5kWh *per hour* of driving. Let's say you run your total 58kWh battery out in approximately 3 hours of driving (a reasonable estimate?) - then a 5kW heater would reduce total battery capacity by 15kWh (or just over 25%) not by 5 kWh. The longer you were driving around with a 5 kW heater running the bigger the total impact would be.
A 20 mile reduction in range is somewhere between a third and a half of the above, but I'm not sure that's a good indicator anyway because you don't know what efficiency the car is assuming in it's range calculation and whether it makes any assumptions about how long you might have the heating on for, there are loads of unknowns. Hope this all makes sense. I have seen various videos and posts by people who actually monitored kW draw and most suggested numbers like monkeyhangars.
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Post by ProstetnicVogonJeltz »

Battery capacity is lower at lower temperatures, and you're also having higher loads such as headlamps and heating. The range indicator can be misleading and seems to be based on recent performance rather than a theoretical range (which is good in a way). You may also see the remaining range "stuck" around the 70 mile mark for a while (I've driven 20 miles without it changing). I tend to watch the battery charge level and base my decisions on that.
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Post by Uphamid3 »

To get an idea of 'real world' driving in the winter in Britain on a typical 5°C day - pop along to the excellent Harry's Garage website and see an id3 in action:



Ignore the 'issues' Harry finds with the original software, and hopefully this video is encouraging as it demonstrates just how good and useable the id3 is on the typical journeys we all make in our daily lives. Note the run to London was with three people and a heavy mirror and painting on board. What's not to like?

I found it all very inspiring and I can't wait to get my id3!
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

sidehaas wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:42 pm
Daveion wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:08 pm
sidehaas wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:24 pm 20 miles is approx 5kWh, that says nothing about the power draw in kw. The power draw to consume 5kwh depends entirely on how long it is operating at that power for.
5kW seems extremely high for cabin HVAC.
Re: the battery preheating, has anyone actually tried the suggestion I gave up thread to go out and turn on with the car on/off button while still plugged in, or knows for definite whether it would work?
4 miles/kW The initial draw could well be 5kW.
Not sustainable maybe but the figure the car initially reports and that is when the range drops 20 miles. I dont think we have seen any average consumptions in kW from the heater. My point was that the car reports 20 mile reduction in range.
Its a 3 phase 400 volt system so an initial 5KW take up is not impossible if the heater operates on all 3 phases. Does anyone know if the heater is single or 3 phase?
Scott seems sure there is no battery pre heating.
Yesterday I preheated the cabin on a 1C morning plugged in for 30 mins. The green bar was only on half measure when I drove off and took 15 minutes or so to reach normal length. I would have thought if any battery preheating had taken place that would have appeared a little different.
Sorry, don't wish to be pedantic but your car doesn't do 4 miles/kW, it does 4 miles/kWh. The distinction is important. One is an instantaneous power draw and the other is a quantity of energy (power * time.)
If the aircon drew 5 kW the whole time (just for illustration) then it would draw 5kWh *per hour* of driving. Let's say you run your total 58kWh battery out in approximately 3 hours of driving (a reasonable estimate?) - then a 5kW heater would reduce total battery capacity by 15kWh (or just over 25%) not by 5 kWh. The longer you were driving around with a 5 kW heater running the bigger the total impact would be.
A 20 mile reduction in range is somewhere between a third and a half of the above, but I'm not sure that's a good indicator anyway because you don't know what efficiency the car is assuming in it's range calculation and whether it makes any assumptions about how long you might have the heating on for, there are loads of unknowns. Hope this all makes sense. I have seen various videos and posts by people who actually monitored kW draw and most suggested numbers like monkeyhangars.
5kWh from a 58kWh battery. Sorry to drop the h 😊
I undersatnd the distinction but was just talking about what the initial power draw was in in kW. The car doesn't report amperage so without knowing the VA use the only available figure available.
Never suggested the car would consume 5kW hours ongoing! It maybe the initial draw if its 220v or 400v. I dont know its voltage. I dont believe its possible to be 12v. The fuse rating would be huge.
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itsjon
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Post by itsjon »

so... basically, you can't pre condition the battery unless you drive the car.
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

Im taking a back seat 😂
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Post by Scratch »

Daveion wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:30 pm Im taking a back seat 😂
Where’s the button for autonomous driving? 8-)
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Post by Daveion »

😂
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MotMot
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Post by MotMot »

Battery is 400v (for your amp calculations). Well varies between 390 and 430 depending on SOC inthink.
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

Is the heater single or 3 phase though?
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blenny
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Post by blenny »

ProstetnicVogonJeltz wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:46 pm Battery capacity is lower at lower temperatures, and you're also having higher loads such as headlamps and heating. The range indicator can be misleading and seems to be based on recent performance rather than a theoretical range (which is good in a way). You may also see the remaining range "stuck" around the 70 mile mark for a while (I've driven 20 miles without it changing). I tend to watch the battery charge level and base my decisions on that.
This is one of my bugbears. Eg when I am getting into a hilly area and my miles per kwh is dropping, I know if I am driving in those conditions for much longer - but the forecast uses a much longer period and can be quite miss-leading. As well as having weirdness of range dropping much faster than miles covered.

I wish there were some options to display a more usable number - eg avg usage in last ten mins. Instead I find myself mentally calculating kwh of battery left from %, estimating my miles per kwh and trying to get a better number while driving…
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

Would that not be the same with an ICE?
You can view the data screen options including "since charge" or charge option for battery state of charge.
Like the previous post I look at the battery level on the instrument display in the same I look at my phone battery level. If I want percentages I look further.
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