Range declining with cooler temperatures

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Uphamid3
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Post by Uphamid3 »

To get an idea of 'real world' driving in the winter in Britain on a typical 5°C day - pop along to the excellent Harry's Garage website and see an id3 in action:



Ignore the 'issues' Harry finds with the original software, and hopefully this video is encouraging as it demonstrates just how good and useable the id3 is on the typical journeys we all make in our daily lives. Note the run to London was with three people and a heavy mirror and painting on board. What's not to like?

I found it all very inspiring and I can't wait to get my id3!

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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

sidehaas wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:42 pm
Daveion wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:08 pm
sidehaas wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:24 pm 20 miles is approx 5kWh, that says nothing about the power draw in kw. The power draw to consume 5kwh depends entirely on how long it is operating at that power for.
5kW seems extremely high for cabin HVAC.
Re: the battery preheating, has anyone actually tried the suggestion I gave up thread to go out and turn on with the car on/off button while still plugged in, or knows for definite whether it would work?
4 miles/kW The initial draw could well be 5kW.
Not sustainable maybe but the figure the car initially reports and that is when the range drops 20 miles. I dont think we have seen any average consumptions in kW from the heater. My point was that the car reports 20 mile reduction in range.
Its a 3 phase 400 volt system so an initial 5KW take up is not impossible if the heater operates on all 3 phases. Does anyone know if the heater is single or 3 phase?
Scott seems sure there is no battery pre heating.
Yesterday I preheated the cabin on a 1C morning plugged in for 30 mins. The green bar was only on half measure when I drove off and took 15 minutes or so to reach normal length. I would have thought if any battery preheating had taken place that would have appeared a little different.
Sorry, don't wish to be pedantic but your car doesn't do 4 miles/kW, it does 4 miles/kWh. The distinction is important. One is an instantaneous power draw and the other is a quantity of energy (power * time.)
If the aircon drew 5 kW the whole time (just for illustration) then it would draw 5kWh *per hour* of driving. Let's say you run your total 58kWh battery out in approximately 3 hours of driving (a reasonable estimate?) - then a 5kW heater would reduce total battery capacity by 15kWh (or just over 25%) not by 5 kWh. The longer you were driving around with a 5 kW heater running the bigger the total impact would be.
A 20 mile reduction in range is somewhere between a third and a half of the above, but I'm not sure that's a good indicator anyway because you don't know what efficiency the car is assuming in it's range calculation and whether it makes any assumptions about how long you might have the heating on for, there are loads of unknowns. Hope this all makes sense. I have seen various videos and posts by people who actually monitored kW draw and most suggested numbers like monkeyhangars.
5kWh from a 58kWh battery. Sorry to drop the h 😊
I undersatnd the distinction but was just talking about what the initial power draw was in in kW. The car doesn't report amperage so without knowing the VA use the only available figure available.
Never suggested the car would consume 5kW hours ongoing! It maybe the initial draw if its 220v or 400v. I dont know its voltage. I dont believe its possible to be 12v. The fuse rating would be huge.
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itsjon
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Post by itsjon »

so... basically, you can't pre condition the battery unless you drive the car.
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

Im taking a back seat 😂
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Scratch
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Post by Scratch »

Daveion wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:30 pm Im taking a back seat 😂
Where’s the button for autonomous driving? 8-)
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

😂
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MotMot
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Post by MotMot »

Battery is 400v (for your amp calculations). Well varies between 390 and 430 depending on SOC inthink.
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

Is the heater single or 3 phase though?
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blenny
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Post by blenny »

ProstetnicVogonJeltz wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:46 pm Battery capacity is lower at lower temperatures, and you're also having higher loads such as headlamps and heating. The range indicator can be misleading and seems to be based on recent performance rather than a theoretical range (which is good in a way). You may also see the remaining range "stuck" around the 70 mile mark for a while (I've driven 20 miles without it changing). I tend to watch the battery charge level and base my decisions on that.
This is one of my bugbears. Eg when I am getting into a hilly area and my miles per kwh is dropping, I know if I am driving in those conditions for much longer - but the forecast uses a much longer period and can be quite miss-leading. As well as having weirdness of range dropping much faster than miles covered.

I wish there were some options to display a more usable number - eg avg usage in last ten mins. Instead I find myself mentally calculating kwh of battery left from %, estimating my miles per kwh and trying to get a better number while driving…
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion »

Would that not be the same with an ICE?
You can view the data screen options including "since charge" or charge option for battery state of charge.
Like the previous post I look at the battery level on the instrument display in the same I look at my phone battery level. If I want percentages I look further.
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Post by Scratch »

Daveion wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:33 am Would that not be the same with an ICE?
You can view the data screen options including "since charge" or charge option for battery state of charge.
Like the previous post I look at the battery level on the instrument display in the same I look at my phone battery level. If I want percentages I look further.
Generally speaking, when I had an ICE, I very rarely, if ever, did I suffer from range anxiety. If it needed fuel, I got fuel, anywhere. BEVs are not at that stage yet.
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Post by blenny »

With an ICE typically your range is much greater than distance to any garage, and 20% consumption rate differences aren’t so material.

I drive with a map on (usually apple maps so I get some head-up display directions overlay) and don’t want to be digging in to the data screen to see why the prominent miles left is incorrect, which it can be by quite a factor. Eg head somewhere on motorway, visit, head somewhere else on hilly roads and the range forecast will take a long time to be correct to current conditions (about an hour?).
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Post by Smitten »

Scratch wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:49 am
Daveion wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:33 am Would that not be the same with an ICE?
You can view the data screen options including "since charge" or charge option for battery state of charge.
Like the previous post I look at the battery level on the instrument display in the same I look at my phone battery level. If I want percentages I look further.
Generally speaking, when I had an ICE, I very rarely, if ever, did I suffer from range anxiety. If it needed fuel, I got fuel, anywhere. BEVs are not at that stage yet.
We are still driving one BEV and once ICE. Its charger anxiety I have, not range anxiety. If I knew, for sure I could top up anywhere, without thinking that would be great. We aren't anywhere near that yet on longer journeys with the BEV. I bet the fuel shortage was an eye opener for quite a few ICE drivers mind. Only a quarter of a tank left and where am I going to full up? 🤔
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Sherlock
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Post by Sherlock »

Smitten wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:46 am
Scratch wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:49 am
Daveion wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:33 am Would that not be the same with an ICE?
You can view the data screen options including "since charge" or charge option for battery state of charge.
Like the previous post I look at the battery level on the instrument display in the same I look at my phone battery level. If I want percentages I look further.
Generally speaking, when I had an ICE, I very rarely, if ever, did I suffer from range anxiety. If it needed fuel, I got fuel, anywhere. BEVs are not at that stage yet.
We are still driving one BEV and once ICE. Its charger anxiety I have, not range anxiety. If I knew, for sure I could top up anywhere, without thinking that would be great. We aren't anywhere near that yet on longer journeys with the BEV. I bet the fuel shortage was an eye opener for quite a few ICE drivers mind. Only a quarter of a tank left and where am I going to full up? 🤔
"Its charger anxiety I have, not range anxiety." - I said exactly this to my son as we drove from Edinburgh to Gatwick earlier this week, and after encountering faulty chargers at Norton Caines, and Warwick South and North services. Ended up having to go 10 miles off the motorway to get a charge.

If there were as many chargers as there are petrol pumps and and you could be as confident they would be working the anxiety would be much much less. (and of course there will be eventually I expect).

Having said that, the drop off in range in cold temperatures with the ID3 is probably the thing I am most disappointed in with the car. This is my first EV so not sure if the ID3 is any worse than others. On the other hand the range I was getting in summer was better than I had expected.
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Post by Smitten »

It's a feature of all EVs but some are better than others. I left home today with 80% battery on the e208 and GOM showing 150 miles! I did 33 miles in London traffic (ave 12mph!) stopping multiple times for customer visits which allowed the car to cool and arrived home with 56% battery and GOM showing 77 miles. You are not alone. Admitted its a bad example of lots of short journeys but today I averaged 2.5 miles/kWh it was 4.1 in 20 degrees C.
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Post by StuartT »

Seeing as this is my first winter with an electric car, I've been looking around for some wise words. EVM seems to be talking sense, to me. That's not to say I haven't picked up tips on here!
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Post by Jonr37 »

I’m getting around 2.8 miles per kWh at the moment, but also am doing lots of school run short journeys in a hilly area. This feels like the worst case, and i guess when it gets to summer i;ll be nearer 4 miles per kWh - over the 2 years I’ll have the car it should average itself out to somewhere mid 3’s
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Post by Daveion »

StuartT wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:29 am Seeing as this is my first winter with an electric car, I've been looking around for some wise words. EVM seems to be talking sense, to me. That's not to say I haven't picked up tips on here!
I thought that a good summary of winter running for new owners. Everything presented has been covered seasonally on the forum but its nice to see it all together. The approach to getting stuck in traffic and should you or should you not turn the heater off will be food for thought for many.
You have to have confidence in your own understanding of remainig range and how your journey is in the way it was presented and much of that you can only gain by experience.
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Post by StuartT »

Daveion wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:30 pm

I thought that a good summary of winter running for new owners. Everything presented has been covered seasonally on the forum but its nice to see it all together.
That’s what I was thinking.
It kind of summarised umpteen pages on a website nicely!
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Post by Deleted User 192 »

StuartT wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:29 am Seeing as this is my first winter with an electric car, I've been looking around for some wise words. EVM seems to be talking sense, to me. That's not to say I haven't picked up tips on here!

His comparisons to ICE cars are spot on too, they are easy to forget!
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