If government grant pulled, will you cancel?

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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

Utumno wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:02 pm
Last time it was an immediate reduction for vehicles entered onto the PIVG Grant Portal after the announcement date. In practical terms this means you have to have placed your order with your dealer prior to any grant changes and means that the grant is still available for cars with a customer contract date before the "change". For absolute clarity, existing orders were not affected in the slightest, and there was also a 28 day moratorium to ensure contracts were logged into the PIVG portal before the "change".
I wonder if one can get a price from a dealer in advance and order on 28th October if the EV grant is pulled completely and get a "friendly" dealer to make an entry on the PIVG Grant Portal to get the grant? I doubt anyone is going to know what time the deposit was taken on 28th!

Ordering the basic Life model would be the greatest % increase.
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

Cherry wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:25 pm
Utumno wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:02 pm
Last time it was an immediate reduction for vehicles entered onto the PIVG Grant Portal after the announcement date. In practical terms this means you have to have placed your order with your dealer prior to any grant changes and means that the grant is still available for cars with a customer contract date before the "change". For absolute clarity, existing orders were not affected in the slightest, and there was also a 28 day moratorium to ensure contracts were logged into the PIVG portal before the "change".
I wonder if one can get a price from a dealer in advance and order on 28th October if the EV grant is pulled completely and get a "friendly" dealer to make an entry on the PIVG Grant Portal to get the grant? I doubt anyone is going to know what time the deposit was taken on 28th!

Ordering the basic Life model would be the greatest % increase.

Risky, and also probably illegal.

A quote is not a contract and the PIVG specifically says contract date for a reason - you would need to have entered into a contract with the dealer prior to the date. Having a "friendly" dealer backdate the contract date would likely constitute grant fraud, which I find myself unable to encourage. Also the contract date won't necessarily be the date you place the order, particularly if you are placing a finance order. Instead the contract date will be the date that the contract is entered into, which is typically after all finance approvals are approved

Could you place a cash order on the 26th and then decide whether to cancel it or not after the budget announcements ? I would expect so. And then if you wanted to convert that cash order to a finance order, a friendly dealer could be reasonably expected to make the necessary paperwork happen.
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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

Utumno wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:16 pm
Risky, and also probably illegal.
Not at all. You pay your deposit on the 28th and sign contracts the same day. It is not back dated to a different date.

I think it should be pulled. If someone an afford a new car they can afford to pay the full price.
Give the grant to get old cars off the road. I could put my SORN 27 year old Mazda MX3 back on the road!
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tomstring
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Post by tomstring »

Hopefully exiting orders will be protected.
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Post by colonelpurple »

Cherry wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:50 pm It seems "Dicky" (not Dishy) Rishi may cancel the £2500 EV grant in his budget.

What if he pulls it straight away and not allow existing orders to benefit, would people cancel their orders or accept paying the extra £2,500?
It equivalent to c7% price increase.

I bet VW would then increase prices further as they have no incentive to keep prices below £35k.
Firstly he is Dishy

Secondly all of these incentives, from the charger help to zero tax, is only temporary to encourage takeup. So no way is any of this continuing long term.

Thirdly, if its built into the contract at the time of signing, its highly unlikely that these contracts will be effected. Retrospective legislation is a general disaster, and has only been used historically in tax avoidance

Take what you can today. This is a golden age of EV motoring. Free chargers in many places, zero tax, zero congestion charge, gov grant. Enjoy whilst you can.
We are the early adopters - just!
looks like even over the next few years the tide of EV purchase could be overwhelming

all the evidence you need was the historical approach to LPG
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Post by andrewparker »

What's more effective at increasing take up; giving people £2500 off a car that is under £35k, or investing that money in the infrastructure that will convince people that an EV is a viable option?
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Post by Utumno »

Uh, giving people money off. Every time. People are venal. Though to be fair I’ve probably conflated “effective” with “popular” 😂

I mean just look at Cherry - wanting to scrap the grant because people who can afford new cars don’t need financial assistance. Then harps on forever about how much discount he got and worries about having the grant yanked 🤷‍♂️
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Post by Cherry »

Utumno wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:03 am Uh, giving people money off. Every time. People are venal. Though to be fair I’ve probably conflated “effective” with “popular” 😂

I mean just look at Cherry - wanting to scrap the grant because people who can afford new cars don’t need financial assistance. Then harps on forever about how much discount he got and worries about having the grant yanked 🤷‍♂️
It is called being honest.

Why should a person who can afford to buy a new car get a grant? If it is pulled I will not cancel my order. I can afford the extra £2500, but I want the best deal I can get.
I want to keep the grant (greed). There is nothing wrong with this and this is why I tried and succeeded in beating DTD prices.
In all honesty wasn't it ridiculous giving someone c5k off a £60k car? If they can afford to pay £55k they can afford to pay £60k.
It is not if a £60k EV will actually save money.

Surely, it is better to get old polluting cars off the road and these people are more likely not able to afford a newer car.
So, I happen to have a 27 year old MX3 (which I purchased new) that has been SORN for 7 years. This is not common.
If, I could legally exploit this, why not? Give me £3k off, I will scrap the MX3, buy a new car and sell my diesel BMW as well!
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Post by monkeyhanger »

If the grant is pulled or significantly reduced, VW will almost certainly increase the deposit contribution accordingly - they did this last time after reducing the price of the family to scrape under the new £35k threshold, the Tour and Max ended up getting their deposit contribution upped to £4750 so that those cars which suddenly cost £3k more wouldn't languish in dealership stocks once they arrived. This was to cover orders made before the grant changes were announced.

If the government want a reasonable number of EVs on the road, they'll have to incentivise the masses to do so in some form. If anyone can't charge at home, its a hard sell to make them get an EV and be paying 30-40p per kWh to fill it up.EVs are getting cheaper, but they've got a way to go yet before those not used to dropping £25-30k on a car can get their hands on a 5 year old ID3 for £12-15k.
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Post by Scratch »

In the present economic climate (disaster), I would suspect that the grant will either be reduced or removed. I did read somewhere a while ago that the UK has the lowest incentive in Europe regarding EVs. Don't know if that is still true?
I have also wondered whether the manufacturer's list price is artificially inflated to compensate for the grant and does not reflect the real, lower, price the car should be. Maybe that is irrelevant now, with the popularity and scarceness of EV cars now.
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Scratch wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:54 am In the present economic climate (disaster), I would suspect that the grant will either be reduced or removed. I did read somewhere a while ago that the UK has the lowest incentive in Europe regarding EVs. Don't know if that is still true?
I have also wondered whether the manufacturer's list price is artificially inflated to compensate for the grant and does not reflect the real, lower, price the car should be. Maybe that is irrelevant now, with the popularity and scarceness of EV cars now.
I'd suspect there's some price inflation going on with the grant in place - it's free monet for them and tge car still looks competitively priced.

This is definitely happening with charging points. Those charging points all look about £350 overpriced . If that grant ended tomorrow, those £950 installations (costing the end user a net £600) would become £600 installations or thereabouts.

When installers are getting pod points/Ohmes etc for about £250 at trade, taking 3 hours to install them and adding about £120 kit for connection (earthing rods, clamps etc) - how do you get to a genuine £950 cost.

A mate of mine got a charger years ago when there was a £1000 grant - they charged £1000 on invoice (effectively free). A few years later the grant dropped to £800 and so did the invoicing cost. A Sparky friend reckoned at the time that if you could buy these basic chargers from CEF they'd cost about £200. Lots of price gouging making full advantage of the grant.
Last edited by monkeyhanger on Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

Even though our ID.3 Tour didn't qualify for the grant (list >35k), the dealer still applied it. I could probably sell it used now for more money than list.

All the best

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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

If the government has a grant system for chargers they should authorise each charger and a maximum price for the charger and installation.

The abuse has to stop of just inflating EV charger prices because of a grant. They should remove the grant for chargers.
They should have added it to cars!
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Post by Raxacorico »

You may have noticed that several car manufacturers lowered their prices to less than £35k when the grant was reduced!
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Post by shire-dweller »

Cherry wrote: Why should a person who can afford to buy a new car get a grant?
 
The climate emergency, of course, lest one forget the Holocene extinction. The grant nudges someone to buy an EV instead of an ICE, despite range anxiety, limited charging infrastructure and higher purchase cost -- for now.
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Post by Cherry »

shire-dweller wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:52 pm
Cherry wrote: Why should a person who can afford to buy a new car get a grant?
 
The climate emergency, of course, lest one forget the Holocene extinction. The grant nudges someone to buy an EV instead of an ICE, despite range anxiety, limited charging infrastructure and higher purchase cost -- for now.
Surely, then it would be better to spend money taking old cars off the road via grants than giving money to buy expensive cars to replace relatively new cars.
Think of the energy used to make the EV car and Lithium mining using diesel. Not very green and comical if you talk about a climate emergency.

If there was a climate emergency then why give money for cars? Make them so expensive that people are forced to use public transport and taxis.
Ban all cars more than 10 years old!
Back to the 1960s when few people had cars!
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Post by andrewparker »

O/T did you used to be on VWROC Monkeyhanger?
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Cherry wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:58 pm
shire-dweller wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:52 pm
Cherry wrote: Why should a person who can afford to buy a new car get a grant?
 
The climate emergency, of course, lest one forget the Holocene extinction. The grant nudges someone to buy an EV instead of an ICE, despite range anxiety, limited charging infrastructure and higher purchase cost -- for now.
Surely, then it would be better to spend money taking old cars off the road via grants than giving money to buy expensive cars to replace relatively new cars.
Think of the energy used to make the EV car and Lithium mining using diesel. Not very green and comical if you talk about a climate emergency.

If there was a climate emergency then why give money for cars? Make them so expensive that people are forced to use public transport and taxis.
Ban all cars more than 10 years old!
Back to the 1960s when few people had cars!
Cars for the rich only? Do you even review what you're about to post, before posting it? I have a32 mile commute each way that would involve 3 buses, or 2 buses and a train, take me over 2 hours each way and cost me about £24 a day. Or I can be in the car for 40 mins each way and use about 80p of off peak electricity.

What would you choose?
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Post by monkeyhanger »

andrewparker wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:14 am O/T did you used to be on VWROC Monkeyhanger?
Yes, I was on there, with my Lapiz/Prets Golf R.
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Post by Cherry »

monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:05 am
Cars for the rich only? Do you even review what you're about to post, before posting it? I have a32 mile commute each way that would involve 3 buses, or 2 buses and a train, take me over 2 hours each way and cost me about £24 a day. Or I can be in the car for 40 mins each way and use about 80p of off peak electricity.

What would you choose?
Move house. Work from home or change job. Common sense really.
Nobody forces you to live so far.

What would you have done in the 1950s?

What will you do if the government charges you £1 a mile? £64 extra per day!
Will you move closer to work then?

Give everyone a 4000 mile annual allowance and charge them for every additional mile.
e.g. £x per mile up to £8k and then £2x up to 12k, then £3x for up to 15k and then 4x for etc

How many people would then choose to live 32 miles from work then?
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