If government grant pulled, will you cancel?

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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

It seems "Dicky" (not Dishy) Rishi may cancel the £2500 EV grant in his budget.

What if he pulls it straight away and not allow existing orders to benefit, would people cancel their orders or accept paying the extra £2,500?
It equivalent to c7% price increase.

I bet VW would then increase prices further as they have no incentive to keep prices below £35k.
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sausageroll
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Post by sausageroll »

it'd be a 10% increase on the Pure.

It's not a realistic scenario and unlikely to affect existing orders, so not really worth sweating over tbh
Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

sausageroll wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:03 pm it'd be a 10% increase on the Pure.

It's not a realistic scenario and unlikely to affect existing orders, so not really worth sweating over tbh
In that case may be order a second and sell at a profit. As it is new ID.3 are cheaper than used!
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Black
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Post by Black »

No chance of cancelling, waited too long and given the price rise and long lead times I expect when it does arrive it will be depreciation free motoring for a year.
Delivery times are not going to come down quickly and the high used prices at the moment also have that baked in.
If we like it when we get it I will think hard about ordering another one.
andrewparker
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Post by andrewparker »

I’m not benefitting from it, so no!
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

Much more likely in my opinion is another limit cut (to somewhere around £25k I would expect) and a move from a flat amount to a percentage (the cheaper the car, the smaller the grant).

This encourages the creation and uptake of cheaper cars, is cheaper for the Treasury in the short term (grants can’t be claimed if vehicles don’t exist at that price point!) and actively begins to phase out the grant as we edge ever slowly nearer to phasing out ICE cars completely.

I’d expect this change to be immediate with no advance warning and to apply only to new car orders after that date.
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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

What happened last time? Was it an immediate cut which applied to existing orders?
Didn't this result in cancellations and some bargains with dealers left with extra stock?
9 Sep 21 Ordered ID.3 Family Pro, Stonewashed Blue & East Derry
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sidehaas
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Post by sidehaas »

When I ordered, the dealer verbally confirmed that whatever happened to the government grant, the agreed price at the point of order was protected. Additionally, the price we both signed up to on the contract documentation is the net price, ie the price to exchange after the current grant value and my agreed part ex value are removed. So I don't see a significant risk here.
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Uphamid3
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Post by Uphamid3 »

When the government subsidy was cut previously to the present level, even though the cut was with immediate effect, any orders placed before or within the previous 28 days were allowed to continue with the higher subsidy that was in place before the cut was announced.

So, for those of us with orders waiting to be fulfilled, I don’t imagine there will be any problems. Fingers crossed!
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

Cherry wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:43 pm What happened last time? Was it an immediate cut which applied to existing orders?

No.

Last time it was an immediate reduction for vehicles entered onto the PIVG Grant Portal after the announcement date. In practical terms this means you have to have placed your order with your dealer prior to any grant changes and means that the grant is still available for cars with a customer contract date before the "change". For absolute clarity, existing orders were not affected in the slightest, and there was also a 28 day moratorium to ensure contracts were logged into the PIVG portal before the "change".
Cherry wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:43 pm Didn't this result in cancellations and some bargains with dealers left with extra stock?

No.

Dealers were left with the exact stock they had before, only now they were more expensive as they no longer fell into the catchment of the grant and thus the sticker price went up by the value of the grant. As a result dealers discounted saids ticket price to shift that suddenly expensive stock, and bargains therefore became available. If you remember there was a large push by VW to clear stock before they changed the price lists to gerrymander more trims below the £35k limit.

And finally .... even if you're on a long waiting list between order and delivery, your contract date is still your contract date so there's no prospect of you getting your grant pulled.

That said, my advice to anyone on the fence about ordering would be to get your order in as soon as possible before the 27th October, ideally in the next week. The grant certainly isn't going up, and may well go down/disappear entirely and orders after the 27th may well be £2500 more expensive! But orders before, you're likely absolutely fine.
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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

Utumno wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:02 pm
Last time it was an immediate reduction for vehicles entered onto the PIVG Grant Portal after the announcement date. In practical terms this means you have to have placed your order with your dealer prior to any grant changes and means that the grant is still available for cars with a customer contract date before the "change". For absolute clarity, existing orders were not affected in the slightest, and there was also a 28 day moratorium to ensure contracts were logged into the PIVG portal before the "change".
I wonder if one can get a price from a dealer in advance and order on 28th October if the EV grant is pulled completely and get a "friendly" dealer to make an entry on the PIVG Grant Portal to get the grant? I doubt anyone is going to know what time the deposit was taken on 28th!

Ordering the basic Life model would be the greatest % increase.
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13 Sep 21 PCP approved. VW No: 3131xxxx
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

Cherry wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:25 pm
Utumno wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:02 pm
Last time it was an immediate reduction for vehicles entered onto the PIVG Grant Portal after the announcement date. In practical terms this means you have to have placed your order with your dealer prior to any grant changes and means that the grant is still available for cars with a customer contract date before the "change". For absolute clarity, existing orders were not affected in the slightest, and there was also a 28 day moratorium to ensure contracts were logged into the PIVG portal before the "change".
I wonder if one can get a price from a dealer in advance and order on 28th October if the EV grant is pulled completely and get a "friendly" dealer to make an entry on the PIVG Grant Portal to get the grant? I doubt anyone is going to know what time the deposit was taken on 28th!

Ordering the basic Life model would be the greatest % increase.

Risky, and also probably illegal.

A quote is not a contract and the PIVG specifically says contract date for a reason - you would need to have entered into a contract with the dealer prior to the date. Having a "friendly" dealer backdate the contract date would likely constitute grant fraud, which I find myself unable to encourage. Also the contract date won't necessarily be the date you place the order, particularly if you are placing a finance order. Instead the contract date will be the date that the contract is entered into, which is typically after all finance approvals are approved

Could you place a cash order on the 26th and then decide whether to cancel it or not after the budget announcements ? I would expect so. And then if you wanted to convert that cash order to a finance order, a friendly dealer could be reasonably expected to make the necessary paperwork happen.
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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

Utumno wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:16 pm
Risky, and also probably illegal.
Not at all. You pay your deposit on the 28th and sign contracts the same day. It is not back dated to a different date.

I think it should be pulled. If someone an afford a new car they can afford to pay the full price.
Give the grant to get old cars off the road. I could put my SORN 27 year old Mazda MX3 back on the road!
9 Sep 21 Ordered ID.3 Family Pro, Stonewashed Blue & East Derry
13 Sep 21 PCP approved. VW No: 3131xxxx
24 Sep 21 Temp build wk43, conf' 46
22 Nov 21 Conf' build wk 49
10 Jan 22 Code 38 Awaiting ship-release (wk48 build)
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tomstring
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Post by tomstring »

Hopefully exiting orders will be protected.
colonelpurple
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Post by colonelpurple »

Cherry wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:50 pm It seems "Dicky" (not Dishy) Rishi may cancel the £2500 EV grant in his budget.

What if he pulls it straight away and not allow existing orders to benefit, would people cancel their orders or accept paying the extra £2,500?
It equivalent to c7% price increase.

I bet VW would then increase prices further as they have no incentive to keep prices below £35k.
Firstly he is Dishy

Secondly all of these incentives, from the charger help to zero tax, is only temporary to encourage takeup. So no way is any of this continuing long term.

Thirdly, if its built into the contract at the time of signing, its highly unlikely that these contracts will be effected. Retrospective legislation is a general disaster, and has only been used historically in tax avoidance

Take what you can today. This is a golden age of EV motoring. Free chargers in many places, zero tax, zero congestion charge, gov grant. Enjoy whilst you can.
We are the early adopters - just!
looks like even over the next few years the tide of EV purchase could be overwhelming

all the evidence you need was the historical approach to LPG
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andrewparker
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Post by andrewparker »

What's more effective at increasing take up; giving people £2500 off a car that is under £35k, or investing that money in the infrastructure that will convince people that an EV is a viable option?
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

Uh, giving people money off. Every time. People are venal. Though to be fair I’ve probably conflated “effective” with “popular” 😂

I mean just look at Cherry - wanting to scrap the grant because people who can afford new cars don’t need financial assistance. Then harps on forever about how much discount he got and worries about having the grant yanked 🤷‍♂️
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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

Utumno wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:03 am Uh, giving people money off. Every time. People are venal. Though to be fair I’ve probably conflated “effective” with “popular” 😂

I mean just look at Cherry - wanting to scrap the grant because people who can afford new cars don’t need financial assistance. Then harps on forever about how much discount he got and worries about having the grant yanked 🤷‍♂️
It is called being honest.

Why should a person who can afford to buy a new car get a grant? If it is pulled I will not cancel my order. I can afford the extra £2500, but I want the best deal I can get.
I want to keep the grant (greed). There is nothing wrong with this and this is why I tried and succeeded in beating DTD prices.
In all honesty wasn't it ridiculous giving someone c5k off a £60k car? If they can afford to pay £55k they can afford to pay £60k.
It is not if a £60k EV will actually save money.

Surely, it is better to get old polluting cars off the road and these people are more likely not able to afford a newer car.
So, I happen to have a 27 year old MX3 (which I purchased new) that has been SORN for 7 years. This is not common.
If, I could legally exploit this, why not? Give me £3k off, I will scrap the MX3, buy a new car and sell my diesel BMW as well!
9 Sep 21 Ordered ID.3 Family Pro, Stonewashed Blue & East Derry
13 Sep 21 PCP approved. VW No: 3131xxxx
24 Sep 21 Temp build wk43, conf' 46
22 Nov 21 Conf' build wk 49
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monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

If the grant is pulled or significantly reduced, VW will almost certainly increase the deposit contribution accordingly - they did this last time after reducing the price of the family to scrape under the new £35k threshold, the Tour and Max ended up getting their deposit contribution upped to £4750 so that those cars which suddenly cost £3k more wouldn't languish in dealership stocks once they arrived. This was to cover orders made before the grant changes were announced.

If the government want a reasonable number of EVs on the road, they'll have to incentivise the masses to do so in some form. If anyone can't charge at home, its a hard sell to make them get an EV and be paying 30-40p per kWh to fill it up.EVs are getting cheaper, but they've got a way to go yet before those not used to dropping £25-30k on a car can get their hands on a 5 year old ID3 for £12-15k.
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Post by Scratch »

In the present economic climate (disaster), I would suspect that the grant will either be reduced or removed. I did read somewhere a while ago that the UK has the lowest incentive in Europe regarding EVs. Don't know if that is still true?
I have also wondered whether the manufacturer's list price is artificially inflated to compensate for the grant and does not reflect the real, lower, price the car should be. Maybe that is irrelevant now, with the popularity and scarceness of EV cars now.
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