Home charger cost effective or not?

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monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:57 pm
Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:50 pm
Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:38 pm Ohme should specify the cost or confirm there are no additional costs.

Please feel free to take this to Ohme. You've already made your point here to no particular agreement or sympathy.
I have and they will not answer. Read receipt provided and no response. I find this pathetic.
I do not ask for sympathy. I do not need to agree with your point of view. You do not need to agree with mime.

I do not like to enter in to a purchase with no idea of ongoing costs.
They could say £150 a year or force you to install a new EC charger.

May be I ask too much, I would have expected a software to allow a user to configure their cheap times for charging build in to the device itself.
Isn't this standard?

What is the data or wifi actually for?
The data is so they can reference your tariff (you tell the charger what your tariff is) and decide dynamically whether to start pushing electricity to your connected car based on whether the cheap rate (as per your tariff) has started.

You ask way too much from Ohme. People that ask questions like yours, make crazy assumptions and make unreasonable demands are the bane of my working life. :lol:
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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:49 pm
You don't agree with anyone here. You ask advice from everyone then rubbish the answers given.

If there were a SIM charge, it would be coppers, literally a tenner a year. If they're charging for a SIM, they won't charge again for connection, but a wifi based company might. Emphasis on the "might". A tenner a year from year 4 as a possibility, that's the same as another chargermessing up the scheduling and charging your standard rate 3 times a year, or perhaps the cost of 2 unscheduled visits from friends brandishing granny chargers
I give an alternative view. You rubbish the alternative views.

You simply do not know the charge will be coppers and make assumptions.
Ohme may well and should charge as much as they can get away with. They should as a revenue stream.
They could easily claim a £5 charge a month is reasonable.
For £60 a year most people will not make their chargers dump. Even for £120 a year they will not.
They may say £200 a year for data and maintenance.
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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:06 pmThe data is so they can reference your tariff (you tell the charger what your tariff is) and decide dynamically whether to start pushing electricity to your connected car based on whether the cheap rate (as per your tariff) has started.

You ask way too much from Ohme. People that ask questions like yours, make crazy assumptions and make unreasonable demands are the bane of my working life. :lol:
Basic code would be for the charger to have software for cheap charging times to be input manually without wifi or data. Similar to time settings in boiler controller for on/off.
How hard is this code? There is no need to be able to reference a tariff and rely upon wifi or data.

Are you saying Ohme has not this basic code in its charger?
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

chrisfs wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:53 pm Utumno - thanks for the tip, and thanks also to monkeyhanger particularly for helping me with some of the maths!

Probably I will go ahead and switch. But I have other complicating factors I didn’t bother you with before. First, we only moved house 3 months ago so I don't yet have much in the way of historical data, and that in summertime. Secondly, I don't yet have my ID3, should have had but repeatedly delayed and now not likely to see it before next year, same story as many others. But my wife has a new Zoe so we are using our Ohme, but its use will more than double when the ID3 arrives. As I say, I will probably switch but that affects the timing of when it is best to do so.

You're most welcome. I think with two EV's in the house I'd be very tempted to put a 7.4kW charger in and hang the cost for the convenience factor, then run the other on a granny if that proves to be necessary. But I do appreciate it's a significant cost that needs careful consideration!
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chrisfs
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Post by chrisfs »

You are right, Cherry. There is no guarantee that Ohme will not act as you fear. So I endorse the earlier suggestion that you remove it from your list and move on to other solutions.

You can come back in three years time and laugh at all us (so far) happy Ohme users.
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Post by chrisfs »

Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:11 pm
chrisfs wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:53 pm Utumno - thanks for the tip, and thanks also to monkeyhanger particularly for helping me with some of the maths!

Probably I will go ahead and switch. But I have other complicating factors I didn’t bother you with before. First, we only moved house 3 months ago so I don't yet have much in the way of historical data, and that in summertime. Secondly, I don't yet have my ID3, should have had but repeatedly delayed and now not likely to see it before next year, same story as many others. But my wife has a new Zoe so we are using our Ohme, but its use will more than double when the ID3 arrives. As I say, I will probably switch but that affects the timing of when it is best to do so.

You're most welcome. I think with two EV's in the house I'd be very tempted to put a 7.4kW charger in and hang the cost for the convenience factor, then run the other on a granny if that proves to be necessary. But I do appreciate it's a significant cost that needs careful consideration!
Thanks Utumno. I do already have an Ohme installed and it’s great. It’s just a question of which tariff I put the leccy through it.
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:09 pm
monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:06 pmThe data is so they can reference your tariff (you tell the charger what your tariff is) and decide dynamically whether to start pushing electricity to your connected car based on whether the cheap rate (as per your tariff) has started.

You ask way too much from Ohme. People that ask questions like yours, make crazy assumptions and make unreasonable demands are the bane of my working life. :lol:
Basic code would be for the charger to have software for cheap charging times to be input manually without wifi or data. Similar to time settings in boiler controller for on/off.
How hard is this code? There is no need to be able to reference a tariff and rely upon wifi or data.

Are you saying Ohme has not this basic code in its charger?

Please see my demystifier post earlier for how these things actually work, versus how you think it should work, but doesn't.

None of us has any clue what code is in Ohme's charger, including you. Best not to speculate and instead deal with observable facts.

You don't want the risk of being charge by Ohme for their SIM card ? Fine, pick a charger that doesn't have a SIM card.
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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

chrisfs wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:13 pm You are right, Cherry. There is no guarantee that Ohme will not act as you fear. So I endorse the earlier suggestion that you remove it from your list and move on to other solutions.

You can come back in three years time and laugh at all us (so far) happy Ohme users.
Some people install 3 months before they have delivery of their car so effectively have 2 years 9 months use.
I cannot understand the logic of such a early install!

I am surprised people are so trusting of a company which refuse to declare what on going costs are.
A good strategy would be compulsory maintenance contracts for sim to operate.
A great revenue stream.
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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:17 pm
Please see my demystifier post earlier for how these things actually work, versus how you think it should work, but doesn't.

None of us has any clue what code is in Ohme's charger, including you. Best not to speculate and instead deal with observable facts.

You don't want the risk of being charge by Ohme for their SIM card ? Fine, pick a charger that doesn't have a SIM card.
I have no idea how they work. Surely one company has created a common sense simple charger that does not rely on wifi or sims to determine cheap charge times via user input of times.
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13 Sep 21 PCP approved. VW No: 3131xxxx
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:23 pm
Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:17 pm
Please see my demystifier post earlier for how these things actually work, versus how you think it should work, but doesn't.

None of us has any clue what code is in Ohme's charger, including you. Best not to speculate and instead deal with observable facts.

You don't want the risk of being charge by Ohme for their SIM card ? Fine, pick a charger that doesn't have a SIM card.
I have no idea how they work. Surely one company has created a common sense simple charger that does not rely on wifi or sims to determine cheap charge times via user input of times.

I'm not aware of one that permits "on-device" entry. Other options exist though, and I'd guide you toward https://guide.openenergymonitor.org/int ... -charging/ and https://shop.openenergymonitor.com/emon ... on-type-2/ for more information.

I also note new information I wasn't previously aware of, that the EmonEVSE is apparently OLEV grant approved.

Also there's a live online demo available, which is nice :-) https://openevse.openenergymonitor.org

You could certainly create your own privately managed charger setup at home with this equipment, and have full control over everything from your own local webserver and OCPP mobile app. This would guarantee that you attract no "service network" costs from manufacturers in the future, because you have constructed your own private network.
Last edited by Utumno on Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:23 pm
Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:17 pm
Please see my demystifier post earlier for how these things actually work, versus how you think it should work, but doesn't.

None of us has any clue what code is in Ohme's charger, including you. Best not to speculate and instead deal with observable facts.

You don't want the risk of being charge by Ohme for their SIM card ? Fine, pick a charger that doesn't have a SIM card.
I have no idea how they work. Surely one company has created a common sense simple charger that does not rely on wifi or sims to determine cheap charge times via user input of times.

There is another alternative for you as well, but it doesn't quite work at the moment. You could get a thoroughly dumb charger installed and use the in-car charging timer. Unfortunately the ID.3 charging timer is unreliable for many people and reliant on getting fixed by VW. The "dumb" charger approach is the one taken by my Dad, but he drives Tesla and the app works ;-)

Incidentally, I'm assuming you know that the ID.3 you have on order only provides free app access for a limited time, and after that an annual charge will be levied by VW to keep the car attached to the mobile network and to your mobile phone app? Just like Ohme...
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chrisfs
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Post by chrisfs »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:20 pm
chrisfs wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:13 pm You are right, Cherry. There is no guarantee that Ohme will not act as you fear. So I endorse the earlier suggestion that you remove it from your list and move on to other solutions.

You can come back in three years time and laugh at all us (so far) happy Ohme users.
Some people install 3 months before they have delivery of their car so effectively have 2 years 9 months use.
I cannot understand the logic of such a early install!

I am surprised people are so trusting of a company which refuse to declare what on going costs are.
A good strategy would be compulsory maintenance contracts for sim to operate.
A great revenue stream.
I accept your inference that if everyone else is thinking one way and you are thinking differently, it is nevertheless entirely possible that you are the one who is thinking correctly.
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Post by Cherry »

Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:35 pm
There is another alternative for you as well, but it doesn't quite work at the moment. You could get a thoroughly dumb charger installed and use the in-car charging timer. Unfortunately the ID.3 charging timer is unreliable for many people and reliant on getting fixed by VW. The "dumb" charger approach is the one taken by my Dad, but he drives Tesla and the app works ;-)

Incidentally, I'm assuming you know that the ID.3 you have on order only provides free app access for a limited time, and after that an annual charge will be levied by VW to keep the car attached to the mobile network and to your mobile phone app? Just like Ohme...

What is the ongoing VW charge? Being VW £10 a month looks likely or free with an annual service.

What does the app do and why does it need to access a mobile network? Is it to set charging times via the app? Would this be lost without paying for the app.
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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

chrisfs wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:44 pm

I accept your inference that if everyone else is thinking one way and you are thinking differently, it is nevertheless entirely possible that you are the one who is thinking correctly.
I am thinking from the customer point of view. Companies are thinking from a revenue stream.

Are you seriously saying a basic function of a charger should not allow a user to input cheap charging times manually and not relying on sims or wifi?

New electric vehicle (EV) charge points installed at home and in the workplace will be pre-programmed to switch off during peak hours to ease pressure on the National Grid.
In May, new charge points will not operate from 8am to 11am and 4pm to 10pm, but owners will be able to override the pre-set times to take account of night workers and people who have different schedule.
https://www.smarttransport.org.uk/news/ ... otect-grid

In its response to the consultation, published recently, it said that many respondents raised concerns about defining a specific off-peak time period in legislation, suggesting it could result in a secondary peak in demand. Based on the feedback, it said it would adopt a more "nuanced approach" by mandating that smart charge points must prompt users to input a charging schedule and they must be pre-set to offer users a charging schedule that by default prevents EVs from charging at peak times.

Is this why Omhe are being discounted? The new versions may well have what I ask for after all,
Last edited by Cherry on Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:09 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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13 Sep 21 PCP approved. VW No: 3131xxxx
24 Sep 21 Temp build wk43, conf' 46
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Up the jumper
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Post by Up the jumper »

Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:35 pm
Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:23 pm
Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:17 pm
Incidentally, I'm assuming you know that the ID.3 you have on order only provides free app access for a limited time, and after that an annual charge will be levied by VW to keep the car attached to the mobile network and to your mobile phone app? Just like Ohme...
And don't forget that your smart meter also has a SIM. So meter, charger and car each have one....(well some meters actually have 2...)

It is often referred to as the internet of things. And in theory each and every SIM could levy some sort of subscription. Best create a spreadsheet to keep track of the pesky blighters!
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:52 pm New electric vehicle (EV) charge points installed at home and in the workplace will be pre-programmed to switch off during peak hours to ease pressure on the National Grid.
In May, new charge points will not operate from 8am to 11am and 4pm to 10pm, but owners will be able to override the pre-set times to take account of night workers and people who have different schedule.
https://www.smarttransport.org.uk/news/ ... otect-grid

Again I'm sorry to counter your 'opinion' with facts, but this is not the case.

New installs will have these defaults, which the user can immediately change during the installation and again at any point in the future. That is the sole change and it's because defaults matter as I've said previously in a different thread on a different topic.

Again I implore you to actually inform your opinions with actual facts instead of regurgitating clickbait nonsense.

Facts : https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... sponse.pdf page 17 :
The Government will mandate that smart chargepoints must prompt users to input a charging schedule during first use. In addition, smart chargepoints must be pre-set to offer users a charging schedule that by default prevents EVs from charging at peak times. During first use, the user must be given the opportunity to edit or remove this setting. The user must also be able to remove or edit this default setting at a later date. Peak times will be defined in legislation as 8am to 11am and 4pm to 10pm on weekdays. This time window is consistent both with our internal projections of expected EV demand, and with various external studies of EV charging patterns. It has been chosen as a peak time window common to both workplace and domestic charging settings, both of which are within the scope of this legislation. The legislation will allow chargepoint sellers to adopt an alternative approach if a chargepoint is sold with a demand side response service and if the chargepoint is configured to meet the technical requirements of this service. In this scenario, the default requirement need not be implemented, since the user will be charging their EV in a smart way in line with a DSR service.
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monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:09 pm
monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:06 pmThe data is so they can reference your tariff (you tell the charger what your tariff is) and decide dynamically whether to start pushing electricity to your connected car based on whether the cheap rate (as per your tariff) has started.

You ask way too much from Ohme. People that ask questions like yours, make crazy assumptions and make unreasonable demands are the bane of my working life. :lol:
Basic code would be for the charger to have software for cheap charging times to be input manually without wifi or data. Similar to time settings in boiler controller for on/off.
How hard is this code? There is no need to be able to reference a tariff and rely upon wifi or data.

Are you saying Ohme has not this basic code in its charger?
Ohme check dynamically. Not all tariffs are rate A for time A and rate B for time B. Some have rates that change dynamically with grid demand and aren't cheap at the same times each day. For this type of tariff you can set your charger to only charge below a certain cost threshold, and when that tariff dynamically decides to dip below that threshold the Ohme will be aware of it and start charging.
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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:11 pm Facts : https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... sponse.pdf page 17 :
The Government will mandate that smart chargepoints must prompt users to input a charging schedule during first use. In addition, smart chargepoints must be pre-set to offer users a charging schedule that by default prevents EVs from charging at peak times. During first use, the user must be given the opportunity to edit or remove this setting. The user must also be able to remove or edit this default setting at a later date. Peak times will be defined in legislation as 8am to 11am and 4pm to 10pm on weekdays. This time window is consistent both with our internal projections of expected EV demand, and with various external studies of EV charging patterns. It has been chosen as a peak time window common to both workplace and domestic charging settings, both of which are within the scope of this legislation. The legislation will allow chargepoint sellers to adopt an alternative approach if a chargepoint is sold with a demand side response service and if the chargepoint is configured to meet the technical requirements of this service. In this scenario, the default requirement need not be implemented, since the user will be charging their EV in a smart way in line with a DSR service.
So under your clickbait what happens if they do not implement and rely on an alternative approach of a sim to adhere to the rules and then decide to charge for a sim and users refuse to pay? Do they have to disable the the charger as it is not compliant? Surely, a dumb manufacturer can implement a manual user input or would consider this.
Or is the alternative only compliant if the sim is free for life?

I implore you to think about these conditions.
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13 Sep 21 PCP approved. VW No: 3131xxxx
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monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:20 pm
chrisfs wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:13 pm You are right, Cherry. There is no guarantee that Ohme will not act as you fear. So I endorse the earlier suggestion that you remove it from your list and move on to other solutions.

You can come back in three years time and laugh at all us (so far) happy Ohme users.
Some people install 3 months before they have delivery of their car so effectively have 2 years 9 months use.
I cannot understand the logic of such a early install!

I am surprised people are so trusting of a company which refuse to declare what on going costs are.
A good strategy would be compulsory maintenance contracts for sim to operate.
A great revenue stream.

Early install ensures the charger is ready for action as soon as you get your car rather than enquiring a week before your car turns up, only to be told there's a 3 month wait to install because demand is high.

People are as trusting with companies as they can be, otherwise they'd buy nowt. If Ohme intended to empty your wallet with ongoing charges after 3 years and no other charger supplier was doing the same, new potential customers would avoid Ohme like the plague - as I said before "commercial suicide". Try applying some common sense once in a while rather than assume worst case paranoia.
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Post by monkeyhanger »

I'm amazed that Cherry decided to even buy an ID3, when no one at the dealerships seem to know when to service (some wanting you to bring in after a year or a mileage threshold than the official 2 years/no mileage considerations) or how much a service will be.
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