Home charger cost effective or not?

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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:23 pm
Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:17 pm
Please see my demystifier post earlier for how these things actually work, versus how you think it should work, but doesn't.

None of us has any clue what code is in Ohme's charger, including you. Best not to speculate and instead deal with observable facts.

You don't want the risk of being charge by Ohme for their SIM card ? Fine, pick a charger that doesn't have a SIM card.
I have no idea how they work. Surely one company has created a common sense simple charger that does not rely on wifi or sims to determine cheap charge times via user input of times.

There is another alternative for you as well, but it doesn't quite work at the moment. You could get a thoroughly dumb charger installed and use the in-car charging timer. Unfortunately the ID.3 charging timer is unreliable for many people and reliant on getting fixed by VW. The "dumb" charger approach is the one taken by my Dad, but he drives Tesla and the app works ;-)

Incidentally, I'm assuming you know that the ID.3 you have on order only provides free app access for a limited time, and after that an annual charge will be levied by VW to keep the car attached to the mobile network and to your mobile phone app? Just like Ohme...
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chrisfs
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Post by chrisfs »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:20 pm
chrisfs wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:13 pm You are right, Cherry. There is no guarantee that Ohme will not act as you fear. So I endorse the earlier suggestion that you remove it from your list and move on to other solutions.

You can come back in three years time and laugh at all us (so far) happy Ohme users.
Some people install 3 months before they have delivery of their car so effectively have 2 years 9 months use.
I cannot understand the logic of such a early install!

I am surprised people are so trusting of a company which refuse to declare what on going costs are.
A good strategy would be compulsory maintenance contracts for sim to operate.
A great revenue stream.
I accept your inference that if everyone else is thinking one way and you are thinking differently, it is nevertheless entirely possible that you are the one who is thinking correctly.
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Post by Cherry »

Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:35 pm
There is another alternative for you as well, but it doesn't quite work at the moment. You could get a thoroughly dumb charger installed and use the in-car charging timer. Unfortunately the ID.3 charging timer is unreliable for many people and reliant on getting fixed by VW. The "dumb" charger approach is the one taken by my Dad, but he drives Tesla and the app works ;-)

Incidentally, I'm assuming you know that the ID.3 you have on order only provides free app access for a limited time, and after that an annual charge will be levied by VW to keep the car attached to the mobile network and to your mobile phone app? Just like Ohme...

What is the ongoing VW charge? Being VW £10 a month looks likely or free with an annual service.

What does the app do and why does it need to access a mobile network? Is it to set charging times via the app? Would this be lost without paying for the app.
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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

chrisfs wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:44 pm

I accept your inference that if everyone else is thinking one way and you are thinking differently, it is nevertheless entirely possible that you are the one who is thinking correctly.
I am thinking from the customer point of view. Companies are thinking from a revenue stream.

Are you seriously saying a basic function of a charger should not allow a user to input cheap charging times manually and not relying on sims or wifi?

New electric vehicle (EV) charge points installed at home and in the workplace will be pre-programmed to switch off during peak hours to ease pressure on the National Grid.
In May, new charge points will not operate from 8am to 11am and 4pm to 10pm, but owners will be able to override the pre-set times to take account of night workers and people who have different schedule.
https://www.smarttransport.org.uk/news/ ... otect-grid

In its response to the consultation, published recently, it said that many respondents raised concerns about defining a specific off-peak time period in legislation, suggesting it could result in a secondary peak in demand. Based on the feedback, it said it would adopt a more "nuanced approach" by mandating that smart charge points must prompt users to input a charging schedule and they must be pre-set to offer users a charging schedule that by default prevents EVs from charging at peak times.

Is this why Omhe are being discounted? The new versions may well have what I ask for after all,
Last edited by Cherry on Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:09 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Up the jumper
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Post by Up the jumper »

Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:35 pm
Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:23 pm
Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:17 pm
Incidentally, I'm assuming you know that the ID.3 you have on order only provides free app access for a limited time, and after that an annual charge will be levied by VW to keep the car attached to the mobile network and to your mobile phone app? Just like Ohme...
And don't forget that your smart meter also has a SIM. So meter, charger and car each have one....(well some meters actually have 2...)

It is often referred to as the internet of things. And in theory each and every SIM could levy some sort of subscription. Best create a spreadsheet to keep track of the pesky blighters!
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:52 pm New electric vehicle (EV) charge points installed at home and in the workplace will be pre-programmed to switch off during peak hours to ease pressure on the National Grid.
In May, new charge points will not operate from 8am to 11am and 4pm to 10pm, but owners will be able to override the pre-set times to take account of night workers and people who have different schedule.
https://www.smarttransport.org.uk/news/ ... otect-grid

Again I'm sorry to counter your 'opinion' with facts, but this is not the case.

New installs will have these defaults, which the user can immediately change during the installation and again at any point in the future. That is the sole change and it's because defaults matter as I've said previously in a different thread on a different topic.

Again I implore you to actually inform your opinions with actual facts instead of regurgitating clickbait nonsense.

Facts : https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... sponse.pdf page 17 :
The Government will mandate that smart chargepoints must prompt users to input a charging schedule during first use. In addition, smart chargepoints must be pre-set to offer users a charging schedule that by default prevents EVs from charging at peak times. During first use, the user must be given the opportunity to edit or remove this setting. The user must also be able to remove or edit this default setting at a later date. Peak times will be defined in legislation as 8am to 11am and 4pm to 10pm on weekdays. This time window is consistent both with our internal projections of expected EV demand, and with various external studies of EV charging patterns. It has been chosen as a peak time window common to both workplace and domestic charging settings, both of which are within the scope of this legislation. The legislation will allow chargepoint sellers to adopt an alternative approach if a chargepoint is sold with a demand side response service and if the chargepoint is configured to meet the technical requirements of this service. In this scenario, the default requirement need not be implemented, since the user will be charging their EV in a smart way in line with a DSR service.
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:09 pm
monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:06 pmThe data is so they can reference your tariff (you tell the charger what your tariff is) and decide dynamically whether to start pushing electricity to your connected car based on whether the cheap rate (as per your tariff) has started.

You ask way too much from Ohme. People that ask questions like yours, make crazy assumptions and make unreasonable demands are the bane of my working life. :lol:
Basic code would be for the charger to have software for cheap charging times to be input manually without wifi or data. Similar to time settings in boiler controller for on/off.
How hard is this code? There is no need to be able to reference a tariff and rely upon wifi or data.

Are you saying Ohme has not this basic code in its charger?
Ohme check dynamically. Not all tariffs are rate A for time A and rate B for time B. Some have rates that change dynamically with grid demand and aren't cheap at the same times each day. For this type of tariff you can set your charger to only charge below a certain cost threshold, and when that tariff dynamically decides to dip below that threshold the Ohme will be aware of it and start charging.
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Post by Cherry »

Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:11 pm Facts : https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... sponse.pdf page 17 :
The Government will mandate that smart chargepoints must prompt users to input a charging schedule during first use. In addition, smart chargepoints must be pre-set to offer users a charging schedule that by default prevents EVs from charging at peak times. During first use, the user must be given the opportunity to edit or remove this setting. The user must also be able to remove or edit this default setting at a later date. Peak times will be defined in legislation as 8am to 11am and 4pm to 10pm on weekdays. This time window is consistent both with our internal projections of expected EV demand, and with various external studies of EV charging patterns. It has been chosen as a peak time window common to both workplace and domestic charging settings, both of which are within the scope of this legislation. The legislation will allow chargepoint sellers to adopt an alternative approach if a chargepoint is sold with a demand side response service and if the chargepoint is configured to meet the technical requirements of this service. In this scenario, the default requirement need not be implemented, since the user will be charging their EV in a smart way in line with a DSR service.
So under your clickbait what happens if they do not implement and rely on an alternative approach of a sim to adhere to the rules and then decide to charge for a sim and users refuse to pay? Do they have to disable the the charger as it is not compliant? Surely, a dumb manufacturer can implement a manual user input or would consider this.
Or is the alternative only compliant if the sim is free for life?

I implore you to think about these conditions.
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:20 pm
chrisfs wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:13 pm You are right, Cherry. There is no guarantee that Ohme will not act as you fear. So I endorse the earlier suggestion that you remove it from your list and move on to other solutions.

You can come back in three years time and laugh at all us (so far) happy Ohme users.
Some people install 3 months before they have delivery of their car so effectively have 2 years 9 months use.
I cannot understand the logic of such a early install!

I am surprised people are so trusting of a company which refuse to declare what on going costs are.
A good strategy would be compulsory maintenance contracts for sim to operate.
A great revenue stream.

Early install ensures the charger is ready for action as soon as you get your car rather than enquiring a week before your car turns up, only to be told there's a 3 month wait to install because demand is high.

People are as trusting with companies as they can be, otherwise they'd buy nowt. If Ohme intended to empty your wallet with ongoing charges after 3 years and no other charger supplier was doing the same, new potential customers would avoid Ohme like the plague - as I said before "commercial suicide". Try applying some common sense once in a while rather than assume worst case paranoia.
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Post by monkeyhanger »

I'm amazed that Cherry decided to even buy an ID3, when no one at the dealerships seem to know when to service (some wanting you to bring in after a year or a mileage threshold than the official 2 years/no mileage considerations) or how much a service will be.
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:09 pm
Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:11 pm Facts : https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... sponse.pdf page 17 :
The Government will mandate that smart chargepoints must prompt users to input a charging schedule during first use. In addition, smart chargepoints must be pre-set to offer users a charging schedule that by default prevents EVs from charging at peak times. During first use, the user must be given the opportunity to edit or remove this setting. The user must also be able to remove or edit this default setting at a later date. Peak times will be defined in legislation as 8am to 11am and 4pm to 10pm on weekdays. This time window is consistent both with our internal projections of expected EV demand, and with various external studies of EV charging patterns. It has been chosen as a peak time window common to both workplace and domestic charging settings, both of which are within the scope of this legislation. The legislation will allow chargepoint sellers to adopt an alternative approach if a chargepoint is sold with a demand side response service and if the chargepoint is configured to meet the technical requirements of this service. In this scenario, the default requirement need not be implemented, since the user will be charging their EV in a smart way in line with a DSR service.
So under your clickbait what happens if they do not implement and rely on an alternative approach of a sim to adhere to the rules and then decide to charge for a sim and users refuse to pay? Do they have to disable the the charger as it is not compliant? Surely, a dumb manufacturer can implement a manual user input or would consider this.
Or is the alternative only compliant if the sim is free for life?

I implore you to think about these conditions.

Goodbye Cherry, you've been helped repeatedly and politely, but you're clearly past the point of helping.
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Post by Cherry »

monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:18 pm I'm amazed that Cherry decided to even buy an ID3, when no one at the dealerships seem to know when to service (some wanting you to bring in after a year or a mileage threshold than the official 2 years/no mileage considerations) or how much a service will be.
May be he got a free service included in the deal?
As you know he does not service cars after the warranty period or service pack is over and never had an issue!
What is there to do in an EV service?

It was one of the cheapest EV with the range. Although, he finds VW a poor company to deal with (and dishonest) and hopes they get slaughtered in the diesel gate legal action.

He will not be using the car. His wife will!

Ohme T&Cs https://www.ohme-ev.com/terms-and-conditions

8.2. Ongoing GSM connectivity costs are included in the price of any Cable or Wall Charger ordered before 1 March 2020 for the lifetime of the Product. Ongoing GSM connectivity costs for 3 years are included in the price of any Cable or Wall Charger ordered on or after 1 March 2020. Ongoing GSM connectivity costs included in the pricing of any Cable or Wall Charger ordered on or after 1 July 2020 will be indicated on the order pages when you placed your order or will be communicated to you by us or an Ohme partner.

8.3. We do not currently charge a fee to download the App or for using the Service.

8.4. We may decide to introduce a fee for downloading the App or using the Service in the future. We will always let you know in advance of any changes in our fees and will give you the opportunity to decide whether you want to continue using the Service.

====
Look at Ohme's accounts at Companies House. Total equity MINUS £2,787,793.
Average number of employees including directors: 12.

Wait until Ohme goes bust and the new owner decides to charge £20 a month and stops sales.
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:31 pm
monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:18 pm I'm amazed that Cherry decided to even buy an ID3, when no one at the dealerships seem to know when to service (some wanting you to bring in after a year or a mileage threshold than the official 2 years/no mileage considerations) or how much a service will be.
May be he got a free service included in the deal?
As you know he does not service cars after the warranty period or service pack is over and never had an issue!
What is there to do in an EV service?

It was one of the cheapest EV with the range. Although, he finds VW a poor company to deal with (and dishonest) and hopes they get slaughtered in the diesel gate legal action.

He will not be using the car. His wife will!

Ohme T&Cs https://www.ohme-ev.com/terms-and-conditions

8.2. Ongoing GSM connectivity costs are included in the price of any Cable or Wall Charger ordered before 1 March 2020 for the lifetime of the Product. Ongoing GSM connectivity costs for 3 years are included in the price of any Cable or Wall Charger ordered on or after 1 March 2020. Ongoing GSM connectivity costs included in the pricing of any Cable or Wall Charger ordered on or after 1 July 2020 will be indicated on the order pages when you placed your order or will be communicated to you by us or an Ohme partner.

8.3. We do not currently charge a fee to download the App or for using the Service.

8.4. We may decide to introduce a fee for downloading the App or using the Service in the future. We will always let you know in advance of any changes in our fees and will give you the opportunity to decide whether you want to continue using the Service.

====
Look at Ohme's accounts at Companies House. Total equity MINUS £2,787,793.
Average number of employees including directors: 12.

Wait until Ohme goes bust and the new owner decides to charge £20 a month and stops sales.
Do you honestly think that any charger company will charge £20 a month (£240 a year) for connectivity after those 3 years? If they did, i'd use it as a dumb charger or buy something else as the installation for a straight swap would be a breeze for most sparkys.

Standard terms above for non-clairvoyant companies with respect to the possibility of charging.

You can look at plenty of companies and see them officially posting a loss. My employer is a small UK subsidiary of a large Indian company. We officially make loss, yet I stay in employment. Lots of ways to make a loss on paper for tax purposes - just ask Starbucks UK.
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Post by Cherry »

monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:59 pm Do you honestly think that any charger company will charge £20 a month (£240 a year) for connectivity after those 3 years? If they did, i'd use it as a dumb charger or buy something else as the installation for a straight swap would be a breeze for most sparkys.

Standard terms above for non-clairvoyant companies with respect to the possibility of charging.

You can look at plenty of companies and see them officially posting a loss. My employer is a small UK subsidiary of a large Indian company. We officially make loss, yet I stay in employment. Lots of ways to make a loss on paper for tax purposes - just ask Starbucks UK.
Read the Ohme accounts. It lost substantial money. It did really badly. Not much creative accounting.

Yes, I can imagine a £20 a month charge for an app and sim with maintenance. If no maintenance, no app and no sim strategy. It is revenue generation.

The question is at what cost will you walk away and say no?

Surely a better charger from a customer point is one which allows manual input of off peak times as well as the "smart" sim based features.
If smart is switched off then then the charger is still not dumb.
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:44 pm
monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:59 pm Do you honestly think that any charger company will charge £20 a month (£240 a year) for connectivity after those 3 years? If they did, i'd use it as a dumb charger or buy something else as the installation for a straight swap would be a breeze for most sparkys.

Standard terms above for non-clairvoyant companies with respect to the possibility of charging.

You can look at plenty of companies and see them officially posting a loss. My employer is a small UK subsidiary of a large Indian company. We officially make loss, yet I stay in employment. Lots of ways to make a loss on paper for tax purposes - just ask Starbucks UK.
Read the Ohme accounts. It lost substantial money. It did really badly. Not much creative accounting.

Yes, I can imagine a £20 a month charge for an app and sim with maintenance. If no maintenance, no app and no sim strategy. It is revenue generation.

The question is at what cost will you walk away and say no?

Surely a better charger from a customer point is one which allows manual input of off peak times as well as the "smart" sim based features.
If smart is switched off then then the charger is still not dumb.
So have you looked into anyone else besides Ohme to qualify them as being on shaky ground? Probably not, seeing as you didn't mention Pod Point (VW's official charging partner in the UK, and maybe beyond). Using the same companies house searches as you did for Ohme, Pod Point haven't filed accounts since 2019 and are currently late. For the 2019 accounts, they turned over about £13m, but made an overall loss of over £6m.

You can manually input peak and off peak times with an Ohme, but you can do your scheduling via the ID3 too.

£20 a month to maintain a service on a unit that would cost £350 to replace with something else is a ludicrous proposition, and you know it.
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:19 pm
Goodbye Cherry, you've been helped repeatedly and politely, but you're clearly past the point of helping.


:lol:

Seconded. I'll stop feeding the troll now, he clearly doesn't need any advice from anyone on here. Seemingly there's no ignore button on this forum. :roll:
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Post by Cherry »

monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:24 pm
Seconded. I'll stop feeding the troll now, he clearly doesn't need any advice from anyone on here. Seemingly there's no ignore button on this forum. :roll:
Control Panel. Go to the Friends and Foe tab to stay in your bubble.
Not taking my bet?
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Post by Utumno »

monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:24 pm
Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:19 pm
Goodbye Cherry, you've been helped repeatedly and politely, but you're clearly past the point of helping.


:lol:

Seconded. I'll stop feeding the troll now, he clearly doesn't need any advice from anyone on here. Seemingly there's no ignore button on this forum. :roll:

Nearest is to add Cherry as a “foe” and the forum software will say they’ve posted and hide the text. It’s useless though because it doesn’t stop other folks quoting they’re nonsense, which is then displayed in full in replies.

I’m by nature a helpful chap but some people can’t be helped, particularly when they’re as off their meds as Cherry seems to be today. So I’ll focus on other people instead 😀
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Post by Cherry »

Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:40 pm
Nearest is to add Cherry as a “foe” and the forum software will say they’ve posted and hide the text. It’s useless though because it doesn’t stop other folks quoting they’re nonsense, which is then displayed in full in replies.

I’m by nature a helpful chap but some people can’t be helped, particularly when they’re as off their meds as Cherry seems to be today. So I’ll focus on other people instead 😀
Enjoy being in your bubble where only your view and opinion counts and all other views are wrong.
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Post by chrisfs »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:24 pm
Enjoy being in your bubble where only your view and opinion counts and all other views are wrong.
Classic!
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