Home charger cost effective or not?

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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:34 pm next?

And what if your wifi administered smart charger wanted to charge a monthly subscription fee just to stay connected to them with your free WiFi, call it an"admin fee"?

They can all charge a fee if they choose to, no matter how they connect. Lots of people had had issues with scheduled charging to get the overnight rate, with lots of different makes of charger, but Ohme gave managed to do this successfully from the get Go.

To discount them as a choice because they won't guarantee a free connection for petuity when no other manufacturer will either is pretty daft.

I do not agree.
Both could charge to stay connected to a platform.

Only one could charge for a data sim, so avoiding a sim based system means a lower possibility of charges.

They could say £5 a month for the sim. People may be annoyed, but they will not spend £900 for a new charger to avoid it.
A great additional revenue stream. Screw the customer down the line.
Ohme should specify the cost or confirm there are no additional costs.
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13 Sep 21 PCP approved. VW No: 3131xxxx
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chrisfs
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Post by chrisfs »

And what if the broadband provider decides to increase their charges? My broadband charges are only fixed for a year out, not three, never mind beyond that.
monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:38 pm
monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:34 pm next?

And what if your wifi administered smart charger wanted to charge a monthly subscription fee just to stay connected to them with your free WiFi, call it an"admin fee"?

They can all charge a fee if they choose to, no matter how they connect. Lots of people had had issues with scheduled charging to get the overnight rate, with lots of different makes of charger, but Ohme gave managed to do this successfully from the get Go.

To discount them as a choice because they won't guarantee a free connection for petuity when no other manufacturer will either is pretty daft.

I do not agree.
Both could charge to stay connected to a platform.

Only one could charge for a data sim, so avoiding a sim based system means a lower possibility of charges.
You don't agree with anyone here. You ask advice from everyone then rubbish the answers given.

If there were a SIM charge, it would be coppers, literally a tenner a year. If they're charging for a SIM, they won't charge again for connection, but a wifi based company might. Emphasis on the "might". A tenner a year from year 4 as a possibility, that's the same as another chargermessing up the scheduling and charging your standard rate 3 times a year, or perhaps the cost of 2 unscheduled visits from friends brandishing granny chargers
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:38 pm Ohme should specify the cost or confirm there are no additional costs.

Please feel free to take this to Ohme. You've already made your point here to no particular agreement or sympathy.
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chrisfs
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Post by chrisfs »

Utumno - thanks for the tip, and thanks also to monkeyhanger particularly for helping me with some of the maths!

Probably I will go ahead and switch. But I have other complicating factors I didn’t bother you with before. First, we only moved house 3 months ago so I don't yet have much in the way of historical data, and that in summertime. Secondly, I don't yet have my ID3, should have had but repeatedly delayed and now not likely to see it before next year, same story as many others. But my wife has a new Zoe so we are using our Ohme, but its use will more than double when the ID3 arrives. As I say, I will probably switch but that affects the timing of when it is best to do so.
monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:38 pm
monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:34 pm next?

And what if your wifi administered smart charger wanted to charge a monthly subscription fee just to stay connected to them with your free WiFi, call it an"admin fee"?

They can all charge a fee if they choose to, no matter how they connect. Lots of people had had issues with scheduled charging to get the overnight rate, with lots of different makes of charger, but Ohme gave managed to do this successfully from the get Go.

To discount them as a choice because they won't guarantee a free connection for petuity when no other manufacturer will either is pretty daft.

I do not agree.
Both could charge to stay connected to a platform.

Only one could charge for a data sim, so avoiding a sim based system means a lower possibility of charges.

They could say £5 a month for the sim. People may be annoyed, but they will not spend £900 for a new charger to avoid it.
A great additional revenue stream. Screw the customer down the line.
Ohme should specify the cost or confirm there are no additional costs.
No company reliant on another company to provide SIMs could give you a cast iron guarantee that at years 4+ there will be no further charge. As previously stated (and conveniently ignored by you), they will not be charging £5 a month for a SIM using maybe 50Mb data a month.
Cupra Born V2 e-boost 230ps Aurora Blue, replaced ID3 PP Family

Audi S3 - because I hate rapid charging for long distance driving.

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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:50 pm
Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:38 pm Ohme should specify the cost or confirm there are no additional costs.

Please feel free to take this to Ohme. You've already made your point here to no particular agreement or sympathy.
I have and they will not answer. Read receipt provided and no response. I find this pathetic.
I do not ask for sympathy. I do not need to agree with your point of view. You do not need to agree with mime.

I do not like to enter in to a purchase with no idea of ongoing costs.
They could say £150 a year or force you to install a new EC charger.

May be I ask too much, I would have expected a software to allow a user to configure their cheap times for charging build in to the device itself.
Isn't this standard?

What is the data or wifi actually for?
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13 Sep 21 PCP approved. VW No: 3131xxxx
24 Sep 21 Temp build wk43, conf' 46
22 Nov 21 Conf' build wk 49
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monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

chrisfs wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:53 pm Utumno - thanks for the tip, and thanks also to monkeyhanger particularly for helping me with some of the maths!

Probably I will go ahead and switch. But I have other complicating factors I didn’t bother you with before. First, we only moved house 3 months ago so I don't yet have much in the way of historical data, and that in summertime. Secondly, I don't yet have my ID3, should have had but repeatedly delayed and now not likely to see it before next year, same story as many others. But my wife has a new Zoe so we are using our Ohme, but its use will more than double when the ID3 arrives. As I say, I will probably switch but that affects the timing of when it is best to do so.
Does your electricity usage change much in Winter? Unless you're doing a lot of your heating with electricity rather than gas and most of your lighting isn't LED/fluorescent based, it shouldn't go up much in the Winter.

Mileage is the biggest consideration. Doing 12k miles a year will use as much electricity as running the average house, but if you can get tgat electricity at a preferential rate, it needn't come anywhere close to doubling your bill.
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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:53 pm
No company reliant on another company to provide SIMs could give you a cast iron guarantee that at years 4+ there will be no further charge. As previously stated (and conveniently ignored by you), they will not be charging £5 a month for a SIM using maybe 50Mb data a month.
You do not know what they will charge. They may charge as much as they can get away with.
Are you going to refuse to pay £5 a month and lose "smart capabilities"?
My guess is no.

A company can and should explain if there is a sim charge and what the basis of the charge is going to be.

How do wifi cameras work? Is data on a server and sent to you? No charge!
9 Sep 21 Ordered ID.3 Family Pro, Stonewashed Blue & East Derry
13 Sep 21 PCP approved. VW No: 3131xxxx
24 Sep 21 Temp build wk43, conf' 46
22 Nov 21 Conf' build wk 49
10 Jan 22 Code 38 Awaiting ship-release (wk48 build)
01 March preferred collection
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:57 pm
Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:50 pm
Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:38 pm Ohme should specify the cost or confirm there are no additional costs.

Please feel free to take this to Ohme. You've already made your point here to no particular agreement or sympathy.
I have and they will not answer. Read receipt provided and no response. I find this pathetic.
I do not ask for sympathy. I do not need to agree with your point of view. You do not need to agree with mime.

I do not like to enter in to a purchase with no idea of ongoing costs.
They could say £150 a year or force you to install a new EC charger.

May be I ask too much, I would have expected a software to allow a user to configure their cheap times for charging build in to the device itself.
Isn't this standard?

What is the data or wifi actually for?

Home EV chargers do not (generally) work in the way you think they work. There's a million primers out there on the Internet so Google for more details. However, in the spirit of helping, grant-eligible home chargers work like this :-

  • The charger uses a data connection to register itself with the manufacturers network. This happens over a standardised prototcol called OCPP. This is mandated in law.
  • You, the user, registers an account on the manufacturers network through a website or an app, or both.
  • There is a process called "adoption" where a user account puts a charger device into "adoption" mode, often through scanning a QR code or via Bluetooth locally when logged into their account.
  • The manufacturer systems link your account (and therefore your app) with the charger (ie your account "adopts" the charger) and you can then use the manufacturer network to control the charger.
  • Communication between your app to the charge goes from the app to the internet servers, who then pass the command onto the charger. You never attach to the device directly.
The above only applies to "smart" home charge points, and the above approach is required for the charge points to be eligible for the EVSE grant. Dumb chargers of course exist, but they won't be grant-eligible. This may not matter to you.

I believe there are some Chinese manufactured charge points that can run OCPP locally, and can be configured to talk to a local or self-run OCPP service. But this would require a Raspberry Pi or similar, or your own web service and is beyond most end users.
Last edited by Utumno on Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:08 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:57 pm
Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:50 pm
Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:38 pm Ohme should specify the cost or confirm there are no additional costs.

Please feel free to take this to Ohme. You've already made your point here to no particular agreement or sympathy.
I have and they will not answer. Read receipt provided and no response. I find this pathetic.
I do not ask for sympathy. I do not need to agree with your point of view. You do not need to agree with mime.

I do not like to enter in to a purchase with no idea of ongoing costs.
They could say £150 a year or force you to install a new EC charger.

May be I ask too much, I would have expected a software to allow a user to configure their cheap times for charging build in to the device itself.
Isn't this standard?

What is the data or wifi actually for?
The data is so they can reference your tariff (you tell the charger what your tariff is) and decide dynamically whether to start pushing electricity to your connected car based on whether the cheap rate (as per your tariff) has started.

You ask way too much from Ohme. People that ask questions like yours, make crazy assumptions and make unreasonable demands are the bane of my working life. :lol:
Cupra Born V2 e-boost 230ps Aurora Blue, replaced ID3 PP Family

Audi S3 - because I hate rapid charging for long distance driving.

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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:49 pm
You don't agree with anyone here. You ask advice from everyone then rubbish the answers given.

If there were a SIM charge, it would be coppers, literally a tenner a year. If they're charging for a SIM, they won't charge again for connection, but a wifi based company might. Emphasis on the "might". A tenner a year from year 4 as a possibility, that's the same as another chargermessing up the scheduling and charging your standard rate 3 times a year, or perhaps the cost of 2 unscheduled visits from friends brandishing granny chargers
I give an alternative view. You rubbish the alternative views.

You simply do not know the charge will be coppers and make assumptions.
Ohme may well and should charge as much as they can get away with. They should as a revenue stream.
They could easily claim a £5 charge a month is reasonable.
For £60 a year most people will not make their chargers dump. Even for £120 a year they will not.
They may say £200 a year for data and maintenance.
9 Sep 21 Ordered ID.3 Family Pro, Stonewashed Blue & East Derry
13 Sep 21 PCP approved. VW No: 3131xxxx
24 Sep 21 Temp build wk43, conf' 46
22 Nov 21 Conf' build wk 49
10 Jan 22 Code 38 Awaiting ship-release (wk48 build)
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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:06 pmThe data is so they can reference your tariff (you tell the charger what your tariff is) and decide dynamically whether to start pushing electricity to your connected car based on whether the cheap rate (as per your tariff) has started.

You ask way too much from Ohme. People that ask questions like yours, make crazy assumptions and make unreasonable demands are the bane of my working life. :lol:
Basic code would be for the charger to have software for cheap charging times to be input manually without wifi or data. Similar to time settings in boiler controller for on/off.
How hard is this code? There is no need to be able to reference a tariff and rely upon wifi or data.

Are you saying Ohme has not this basic code in its charger?
9 Sep 21 Ordered ID.3 Family Pro, Stonewashed Blue & East Derry
13 Sep 21 PCP approved. VW No: 3131xxxx
24 Sep 21 Temp build wk43, conf' 46
22 Nov 21 Conf' build wk 49
10 Jan 22 Code 38 Awaiting ship-release (wk48 build)
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

chrisfs wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:53 pm Utumno - thanks for the tip, and thanks also to monkeyhanger particularly for helping me with some of the maths!

Probably I will go ahead and switch. But I have other complicating factors I didn’t bother you with before. First, we only moved house 3 months ago so I don't yet have much in the way of historical data, and that in summertime. Secondly, I don't yet have my ID3, should have had but repeatedly delayed and now not likely to see it before next year, same story as many others. But my wife has a new Zoe so we are using our Ohme, but its use will more than double when the ID3 arrives. As I say, I will probably switch but that affects the timing of when it is best to do so.

You're most welcome. I think with two EV's in the house I'd be very tempted to put a 7.4kW charger in and hang the cost for the convenience factor, then run the other on a granny if that proves to be necessary. But I do appreciate it's a significant cost that needs careful consideration!
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Post by chrisfs »

You are right, Cherry. There is no guarantee that Ohme will not act as you fear. So I endorse the earlier suggestion that you remove it from your list and move on to other solutions.

You can come back in three years time and laugh at all us (so far) happy Ohme users.
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Post by chrisfs »

Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:11 pm
chrisfs wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:53 pm Utumno - thanks for the tip, and thanks also to monkeyhanger particularly for helping me with some of the maths!

Probably I will go ahead and switch. But I have other complicating factors I didn’t bother you with before. First, we only moved house 3 months ago so I don't yet have much in the way of historical data, and that in summertime. Secondly, I don't yet have my ID3, should have had but repeatedly delayed and now not likely to see it before next year, same story as many others. But my wife has a new Zoe so we are using our Ohme, but its use will more than double when the ID3 arrives. As I say, I will probably switch but that affects the timing of when it is best to do so.

You're most welcome. I think with two EV's in the house I'd be very tempted to put a 7.4kW charger in and hang the cost for the convenience factor, then run the other on a granny if that proves to be necessary. But I do appreciate it's a significant cost that needs careful consideration!
Thanks Utumno. I do already have an Ohme installed and it’s great. It’s just a question of which tariff I put the leccy through it.
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:09 pm
monkeyhanger wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:06 pmThe data is so they can reference your tariff (you tell the charger what your tariff is) and decide dynamically whether to start pushing electricity to your connected car based on whether the cheap rate (as per your tariff) has started.

You ask way too much from Ohme. People that ask questions like yours, make crazy assumptions and make unreasonable demands are the bane of my working life. :lol:
Basic code would be for the charger to have software for cheap charging times to be input manually without wifi or data. Similar to time settings in boiler controller for on/off.
How hard is this code? There is no need to be able to reference a tariff and rely upon wifi or data.

Are you saying Ohme has not this basic code in its charger?

Please see my demystifier post earlier for how these things actually work, versus how you think it should work, but doesn't.

None of us has any clue what code is in Ohme's charger, including you. Best not to speculate and instead deal with observable facts.

You don't want the risk of being charge by Ohme for their SIM card ? Fine, pick a charger that doesn't have a SIM card.
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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

chrisfs wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:13 pm You are right, Cherry. There is no guarantee that Ohme will not act as you fear. So I endorse the earlier suggestion that you remove it from your list and move on to other solutions.

You can come back in three years time and laugh at all us (so far) happy Ohme users.
Some people install 3 months before they have delivery of their car so effectively have 2 years 9 months use.
I cannot understand the logic of such a early install!

I am surprised people are so trusting of a company which refuse to declare what on going costs are.
A good strategy would be compulsory maintenance contracts for sim to operate.
A great revenue stream.
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13 Sep 21 PCP approved. VW No: 3131xxxx
24 Sep 21 Temp build wk43, conf' 46
22 Nov 21 Conf' build wk 49
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Cherry
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Post by Cherry »

Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:17 pm
Please see my demystifier post earlier for how these things actually work, versus how you think it should work, but doesn't.

None of us has any clue what code is in Ohme's charger, including you. Best not to speculate and instead deal with observable facts.

You don't want the risk of being charge by Ohme for their SIM card ? Fine, pick a charger that doesn't have a SIM card.
I have no idea how they work. Surely one company has created a common sense simple charger that does not rely on wifi or sims to determine cheap charge times via user input of times.
9 Sep 21 Ordered ID.3 Family Pro, Stonewashed Blue & East Derry
13 Sep 21 PCP approved. VW No: 3131xxxx
24 Sep 21 Temp build wk43, conf' 46
22 Nov 21 Conf' build wk 49
10 Jan 22 Code 38 Awaiting ship-release (wk48 build)
01 March preferred collection
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

Cherry wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:23 pm
Utumno wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:17 pm
Please see my demystifier post earlier for how these things actually work, versus how you think it should work, but doesn't.

None of us has any clue what code is in Ohme's charger, including you. Best not to speculate and instead deal with observable facts.

You don't want the risk of being charge by Ohme for their SIM card ? Fine, pick a charger that doesn't have a SIM card.
I have no idea how they work. Surely one company has created a common sense simple charger that does not rely on wifi or sims to determine cheap charge times via user input of times.

I'm not aware of one that permits "on-device" entry. Other options exist though, and I'd guide you toward https://guide.openenergymonitor.org/int ... -charging/ and https://shop.openenergymonitor.com/emon ... on-type-2/ for more information.

I also note new information I wasn't previously aware of, that the EmonEVSE is apparently OLEV grant approved.

Also there's a live online demo available, which is nice :-) https://openevse.openenergymonitor.org

You could certainly create your own privately managed charger setup at home with this equipment, and have full control over everything from your own local webserver and OCPP mobile app. This would guarantee that you attract no "service network" costs from manufacturers in the future, because you have constructed your own private network.
Last edited by Utumno on Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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