3.0 Software Update

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Busman
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Post by Busman »

OB1CCFC wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 11:36 am
Sherlock wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 11:01 am
OB1CCFC wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 8:16 am Major article in Der Spiegel 20/5
“VW supervisory board fears consequences of software chaos in competition with Tesla’

Basically calling for an urgent review of Cariad by July due to serious software development delays across the VW group.
German forums reporting 3.0 will not be released before Q3 and probably Q4. Another winter looms….
I am confused by this so maybe I am missing something. If 3.0 won't be released until Q3/Q4 what is the 3.0 software that some recent posts on the Deliveries thread say there new car has been delivered with?
They are referring to 2.4 followed by 3.0 OTA for existing cars out in the field, not new cars.
I personally fear for the people getting 3.0 on new cars it is likely to be quite buggy. Then again many of us have lived through that situation..,,
I have to say I have had no issues with my new ID.3 with 3.0 software.All functions are working smoothly.

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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

I am very glad to hear this!
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OB1CCFC
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Post by OB1CCFC »

Indeed good news. It makes you wonder why the long delays…
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

I said earlier why there’s a long delay. Factory cars have a known single hardware configuration, so they are easy and quick to test for. Cars already out there in the fleet are a wide variety of hardware configurations, many with failed updates and software in god knows what state. Too risky to brick someone’s car, or have safety systems unreliable.

So 2.4 rolls in together with a new hardware baseline, but it has to be a different codebase to factory 3.0 because of the march of time and is a sod to test for. So delays and fixes while bugs are squashed.

It’s a classic picture of an organisation not understanding software releases and learning that what happens in the field tests your development and release processes like nothing else. OTA software is hard.
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rikimaru
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Post by rikimaru »

As a software developer having to use 2.3 really tests my patience. Sometimes I just sit and stare at the screen wondering how VW could possibly have messed this up so badly when other companies shipped software that never got OTAs but worked flawlessly the first time.

If 3.0 fixes the laggy software and crashes then it'll be worth the wait, although it'll feel like an eternity by then.
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OB1CCFC
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Post by OB1CCFC »

Utumno wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 9:28 pm I said earlier why there’s a long delay. Factory cars have a known single hardware configuration, so they are easy and quick to test for. Cars already out there in the fleet are a wide variety of hardware configurations, many with failed updates and software in god knows what state. Too risky to brick someone’s car, or have safety systems unreliable.

So 2.4 rolls in together with a new hardware baseline, but it has to be a different codebase to factory 3.0 because of the march of time and is a sod to test for. So delays and fixes while bugs are squashed.

It’s a classic picture of an organisation not understanding software releases and learning that what happens in the field tests your development and release processes like nothing else. OTA software is hard.
Certainly some logic in that. But I’m not sure there’s THAT much variation of cars currently ‘in the field’.
Maybe 1st editions will see controller changes required and certainly anyone not fully on 2.3 should be booked in and any issues resolved now rather than later.
Whatever VW are certainly in a chaotic state right now re the ID range.
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G43FAN

Post by G43FAN »

Utumno wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 10:11 am Called that 3.x OTA wasn’t going to happen this year weeks ago.

To anyone who professionally works in this area - and I have for more than 20 years - it’s quite obvious that VW are not organised correctly to deliver more than a single release a year, if you’re lucky.
I've been saying it for months now, 1st Editions and 2021 built cars won't get updated. I suspect that the chip issue has led to a lot of redevelopment on modules in order to get back into production (and through natural progress) and VW aren't going to rip all these older cars apart to put new modules in. Someone has pulled the wool over the managements eyes on this and I think the realisation is only happening now. In the long term VW may be hoping that the 3 year cycle comes into place and these cars are replaced (they could even offer a financial incentive to get them swapped over but I doubt it).
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

No I think 1ST and 2021 cars will get an update to many modules and will be on 2.4 then OTA’d to 3.x.

But it’s going to be the end of the year before that starts.
Last edited by Utumno on Mon May 23, 2022 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MotMot
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Post by MotMot »

I wonder how much more complex this is made by the iD3 having 13 or so ‘modules’ (bits with processors) compared to 4 in a M3…
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Utumno
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Post by Utumno »

Much more complex, unfortunately. And don’t forget those modules have different revisions and versions too.
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Sherlock
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Post by Sherlock »

MotMot wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 11:39 am I wonder how much more complex this is made by the iD3 having 13 or so ‘modules’ (bits with processors) compared to 4 in a M3…
I would be interested to know more about the id.3 software design - where have you got the info about the number of modules etc.? Thanks
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Post by MotMot »

Sherlock wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 11:45 am
MotMot wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 11:39 am I wonder how much more complex this is made by the iD3 having 13 or so ‘modules’ (bits with processors) compared to 4 in a M3…
I would be interested to know more about the id.3 software design - where have you got the info about the number of modules etc.? Thanks
Ok - I think there’s a US YouTube channel where they tear down EV’s (quite a famous one) and they had a feature about this… sorry no more info than that. The takeaway was that VW’s approach came probably from using modules/components from the parts bin whereas Tesla had to do everything from scratch. Id3 has a gigabit network connecting the modules apparently… advantages of more modules is if one breaks you replace a smaller component.
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Post by G43FAN »

Utumno wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 11:32 am No I think 1ST and 2021 cars will get an update to many modules and will be on 2.4 then OTA’d to 3.x.

But it’s going to be the end of the year before that starts.
I wish I had that confidence in VW and obviously it would be nice to see the updates, but as per the comments above, there are many modules and these are going to make it very complex from a software POV as you suggest. VW and Cariad have a couple of options one is to swap out any of the modules that will not run the later code. That much hardware, I would be very surprised but we'll see. The other option is to have several versions of the code, not practical or manageble with the variations possible.
Volkswagen despite their self proclaimed expertise are completley adrift with this software issue, they have outsourced it to a company who are a just a short way off being 2 years old and I suspect out of their depth. Their focus will be on delivering future updates and not having too many versions of software on the go, any upgrade would therefore require updated/comparable modules and I just don't see VW providing these, I am also going to suggest that dependant on the location of some of the modules in question I am not confident my local VW Service centre can dismantle and reassemble a car in a sufficiently seamless manner.
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Post by sidehaas »

G43FAN wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 12:24 pm
Utumno wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 11:32 am No I think 1ST and 2021 cars will get an update to many modules and will be on 2.4 then OTA’d to 3.x.

But it’s going to be the end of the year before that starts.
I wish I had that confidence in VW and obviously it would be nice to see the updates, but as per the comments above, there are many modules and these are going to make it very complex from a software POV as you suggest. VW and Cariad have a couple of options one is to swap out any of the modules that will not run the later code. That much hardware, I would be very surprised but we'll see. The other option is to have several versions of the code, not practical or manageble with the variations possible.
Volkswagen despite their self proclaimed expertise are completley adrift with this software issue, they have outsourced it to a company who are a just a short way off being 2 years old and I suspect out of their depth. Their focus will be on delivering future updates and not having too many versions of software on the go, any upgrade would therefore require updated/comparable modules and I just don't see VW providing these, I am also going to suggest that dependant on the location of some of the modules in question I am not confident my local VW Service centre can dismantle and reassemble a car in a sufficiently seamless manner.
Not sure how significant this is to your point....but Cariad is actually part of VAG, and always has been. I didn't realise this until recently either. I saw an article the other week that said Diess was going to take closer control because of their performance. Cariad is actually VAG's attempt to do things in house like Tesla do, in preference to using someone like Google.
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Post by G43FAN »

Yes, I did a bit of reading up on them, hence the comment about 2nd Birthday looming. I'm sceptical about the being under the umbrella of.. but I've been involved in a lot of outsourcing.
CARIAD as per their own website is VW's effort to consolidate (never bodes well) all their disperate software houses across VAG. This sounds like a cost cutting excercise more than a 'get everyone in one happy family' excercise. Moving all their software development under one wing also lines it up nicely for a sell off.
I also find that within a year of starting the need to change many members of the Supervisory board could be interesting. (Might be nothing).

Clearly I don't have any inside information or have seen any news that backs up publically my speculation but there's a very common pattern here.
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Post by rikimaru »

sidehaas wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:01 pm
G43FAN wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 12:24 pm
Utumno wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 11:32 am No I think 1ST and 2021 cars will get an update to many modules and will be on 2.4 then OTA’d to 3.x.

But it’s going to be the end of the year before that starts.
I wish I had that confidence in VW and obviously it would be nice to see the updates, but as per the comments above, there are many modules and these are going to make it very complex from a software POV as you suggest. VW and Cariad have a couple of options one is to swap out any of the modules that will not run the later code. That much hardware, I would be very surprised but we'll see. The other option is to have several versions of the code, not practical or manageble with the variations possible.
Volkswagen despite their self proclaimed expertise are completley adrift with this software issue, they have outsourced it to a company who are a just a short way off being 2 years old and I suspect out of their depth. Their focus will be on delivering future updates and not having too many versions of software on the go, any upgrade would therefore require updated/comparable modules and I just don't see VW providing these, I am also going to suggest that dependant on the location of some of the modules in question I am not confident my local VW Service centre can dismantle and reassemble a car in a sufficiently seamless manner.
Not sure how significant this is to your point....but Cariad is actually part of VAG, and always has been. I didn't realise this until recently either. I saw an article the other week that said Diess was going to take closer control because of their performance. Cariad is actually VAG's attempt to do things in house like Tesla do, in preference to using someone like Google.
Of course, as is tradition with these big companies, they had to give it a fancy name and a separate website for...what reason? So people like Diess have less oversight?

Just hire some engineers in house, give them an ID3 and let them have at it.
16 Sep: ID3 Max in Moonstone Grey. BW 40 confirmed. ETA early Dec.
...lots of bad info and delays...
27 April: at port. ETA end of May.
Delivery ETA: 18 May!
MotMot
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Post by MotMot »

I think alot of the front end - the display - the screen for example could really benefit from being OS. Enable people to design their own 'skins' for the screen - allow personalisation of the displays - what you can see, sizes, windows etc.. Let people design a battery temp widget (for example) that floats in the corner of the main display etc... etc..

Obvs this has to be really carefully separated from the core car functions :D But - would be a really cool USP..

This, however, seems a long long way from how VW operate!
Scratch
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Post by Scratch »

There appears to be some speculation that earlier cars may not see many, or any, of the latest updates. Doesn’t this raise the question that some of the functionality which has “been paid for” by the existing owners, may never work at all? If that is the case, then surely there must be some recompense for those owners having bought something that has never worked and will not ever work. I’m thinking here about the on-board charging schedules specifically but there may be other things.
Big277wave
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Post by Big277wave »

We were all sold a car with the promise of over the air updates to improve the car with time. If this is denied to the early cars then that amounts to miss-selling to my mind. Class action everyone?
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Scratch
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Post by Scratch »

Big277wave wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 7:43 pm We were all sold a car with the promise of over the air updates to improve the car with time. If this is denied to the early cars then that amounts to miss-selling to my mind. Class action everyone?
The unfortunate reality about this situation though, is that VW don't actually have a great track record with playing fair with owners. In the UK at least. If you live in the US, you might be OK.
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