Do you follow VW advice on battery charging?

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monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger » Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:27 pm

scott28tt wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:47 pm
Busman wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:01 pm
Any body out there know at what point Volkswagen will replace a depleting battery?

If it’s worse than the warranty conditions?

(70% of original capacity after 8 years or 100,000 miles)
That would be my assumption too. If yourxar is less than 8 years old and it hasn't done more than 100k miles, they'll replace individual battery cells or the whole battery as appropriate. Doubt many people will get a brand spanking new whole battery array unless many of the cells have failed or higely reduced capacity at 4 years. They've probably got contingencies to wriggle out of replacements too - "you remember that minor bump you had 2 years ago and replaced the sill? Well you actually damaged cell X and Y, so we're not replacing those and you'd be over 70% overall if they weren't damaged".
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Scratch
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Post by Scratch » Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:55 pm

aayron wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:20 pm
Like most warranties, the devil is in the detail. If the battery capacity falls below 70% then the warranty kicks-in but they will only repair it sufficient to bring the capacity back to 78% of the original amount. For cars over 5 years old they will only bring it back to 70% of the starting value. See the VW warranty page - the info is near the bottom of the long page https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/owners- ... terms.html

I wonder if the id.3 has any battery charging stats recorded internally that VW can access so any claims on the battery warranty can be rejected on the grounds that you have not maintained the battery sufficiently well?
You can bet your bottom dollar they will be able to get the stats!

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Utumno
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Post by Utumno » Sun Jan 02, 2022 3:51 pm

Scratch wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:55 pm
aayron wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:20 pm
Like most warranties, the devil is in the detail. If the battery capacity falls below 70% then the warranty kicks-in but they will only repair it sufficient to bring the capacity back to 78% of the original amount. For cars over 5 years old they will only bring it back to 70% of the starting value. See the VW warranty page - the info is near the bottom of the long page https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/owners- ... terms.html

I wonder if the id.3 has any battery charging stats recorded internally that VW can access so any claims on the battery warranty can be rejected on the grounds that you have not maintained the battery sufficiently well?
You can bet your bottom dollar they will be able to get the stats!

But they will not be able to use them to avoid their guarantee commitments under UK law, so it doesn’t matter in the slightest.

The percentages are just what they are 🤷‍♂️
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monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger » Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:56 pm

How would they even define misuse of the battery to weasel out of guarantee commitments?

VW recommend you only charge to 80% unless about to embark on a long journey, and not letting the battery get below 40% in the Winter and 20% in the Summer, and so to try and avoid fast charging all the time.

Even for someone with a charger at home, shared between 2 ID3s, I find keeping to the minimum 40% charge in Winter an inconvenience, having literally 40% of the range to play with between charges. If I followed that to the letter, I'd be charging one of thecars every night. It's a bit of a pain as I have literally 3" clearance either side of the gate posts with the wing mirrors out, as I reverse onto our downward sloped drive.

For someone without home charging, I doubt VW could justifiably penalise them with warranty refusal for almost exclusively fast charging and going down beyond 20% routinely before fast charging again.
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SteveH
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Post by SteveH » Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:08 pm

What do people do about the 40% minimum winter charge for long trips? This isn't a problem when I'm going home since I can just plug in immediately, but if I'm going somewhere without a charger should I be stopping at a rapid charger close to the destination to make sure I don't leave the car sat overnight with < 40%? It feels a bit onerous since it adds an extra charging stop to a lot of journeys.

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Daveion
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Post by Daveion » Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:33 pm

If there were no destination chargers available to me I would not worry about leaving the car lower than 40% overnight. If it looked like being lower than 15% I would try to top up en route.
In 13 months I have only done this once.
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MotMot
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Post by MotMot » Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:35 pm

I think its VW covering their backsides - that if its really really cold - the battery heater may chew up 5% or more - dropping you closer to that 20% when you start up or if you go on a very short trip. Imagine the worst case scenario that its -10, and your car is covered in half a metre of snow - and you end up using 10% of the battery heating and clearing the thing....

Mine has been sat outside on 39% since last Tuesday (isolating etc..) and I'm sure its fine.

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Post by duckworthsj » Mon Jan 31, 2022 2:22 pm

We try to follow most of the time.: try to stay between 40-80% using 7,4KWH AC charger because we typically have temperatures that havent gone much over 3C for several weeks. It is general advice you get from almost all EV suppliers.
However just done the first long trip this weekend 600km (375 miles) mostly motorway. I followed a route and charging stops from the Chargemap application. I had tried the WeConnect advised route but it seemed to have me charging at people’s houses in a Swiss villages 😳
So charged to 100% before leaving, then used the Ionity 350KW DC chargers on the route… usually charging to 80% max.
Observations: that
1) the predicted charge times were almost never achieved. Predicted charge times totaling 1hr 10 minutes for the 600km journey but actual was closer to 2 hours… At least part of that was due to my inexperience of selecting the right charger (see below) 😢.
2) The charge begins very slowly… Note most of the recharge fees are based on time connected. I have impression that not only is the slow start to avoid damaging the battery, but also maximise the revenue. 🧐
3) For a 350KW charger the charge rate seemed to reach a maximum of 34KW… Is this the ID3 limiting ?
4) The Chargemap application lists all of the chargers at a given site, by power rating, and which are working or occupied. But arriving at the site it is not always obvious which is the higher output….

We will make the return journey at the end of the week, with an additional detour of 300km to visit family. So the round trip will be 1500km on motorway but also mountain So we see how the first trip experience changes…
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SteveH
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Post by SteveH » Mon Jan 31, 2022 2:26 pm

MotMot wrote:
Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:35 pm
I think its VW covering their backsides - that if its really really cold - the battery heater may chew up 5% or more - dropping you closer to that 20% when you start up or if you go on a very short trip. Imagine the worst case scenario that its -10, and your car is covered in half a metre of snow - and you end up using 10% of the battery heating and clearing the thing....
I wish VW would give more comprehensive guidance on this instead of just saying "winter"... winter in the southern UK is very different from winter in northern Canada or Norway...

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Post by G43FAN » Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:24 pm

SteveH wrote:
Mon Jan 31, 2022 2:26 pm
MotMot wrote:
Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:35 pm
I think its VW covering their backsides - that if its really really cold - the battery heater may chew up 5% or more - dropping you closer to that 20% when you start up or if you go on a very short trip. Imagine the worst case scenario that its -10, and your car is covered in half a metre of snow - and you end up using 10% of the battery heating and clearing the thing....
I wish VW would give more comprehensive guidance on this instead of just saying "winter"... winter in the southern UK is very different from winter in northern Canada or Norway...
It's a bit vague isn't it...
Generally Li battery use needs to be split into Discharge and Charge.
Discharge operating range is -20c - 60C
Charge is a much more restrictive 0C - 45C (Charging below 0C should never be attempted)

I've taken the advice to mean that just as with above 80% charges use should commence ASAP and the battery not be left to stand. With the 40% limit I believe best practice would be to plug in as soon as you stop (whilst there is warmth in the battery) to get back above 40%. You can then pause and make use of say an overnight cheap rate.. This is what I did at the weekend although it was about 10C so not really relevant.. (and 1st time ever the Zappi failed to charge on schedule)
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SteveH
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Post by SteveH » Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:41 pm

G43FAN wrote:
Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:24 pm
With the 40% limit I believe best practice would be to plug in as soon as you stop (whilst there is warmth in the battery) to get back above 40%. You can then pause and make use of say an overnight cheap rate.
This is what I've done when making a long journey ending at home. But obviously that's not an option when going somewhere without a destination charger - it would mean a special stop-off at a rapid charger.

VW's advice doesn't say whether the 40% minimum is because leaving it sat at 20% for a day at a time in the winter would degrade the battery, or if the concern is that the battery heater might completely discharge the battery if left unused for several days. I have read that the battery heater runs in extremely cold temperatures (e.g. ~ -15°C) even when the car is not in use, so that has the potential to discharge the battery, but since we're unlikely to see those kind of temperatures in the UK it wouldn't be something to be concerned about.

phixion
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Post by phixion » Tue May 03, 2022 12:07 pm

So when do we start allowing the car to sit at 20%? Wait til Summer hits or?
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OB1CCFC
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Post by OB1CCFC » Tue May 03, 2022 5:51 pm

For pottering around home I very rarely go below 30% and I charge to 80%.
When I’m on the road I will do anything necessary charging wise to have a comfortable drive and reduce stress.
A few exceptions are not going to make much difference.
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MotMot
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Post by MotMot » Tue May 03, 2022 6:31 pm

I left mine on 15% overnight the other day… I didn’t lose any sleep over it…

Hypercube
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Post by Hypercube » Tue May 03, 2022 6:59 pm

Following VW’s advice I find my car has a practical range of 150 miles in summer and only 80 miles in winter. A far cry from the 267 miles prominently featured in their marketing materials. One would think they could provide rather more detail to their recommendations.

Anyway, that is adequate for most day to day use but one has to go outside of the recommendations for any longer journeys or else resort to ICE

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Post by sidehaas » Tue May 03, 2022 7:18 pm

Hypercube wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 6:59 pm
Following VW’s advice I find my car has a practical range of 150 miles in summer and only 80 miles in winter. A far cry from the 267 miles prominently featured in their marketing materials. One would think they could provide rather more detail to their recommendations.

Anyway, that is adequate for most day to day use but one has to go outside of the recommendations for any longer journeys or else resort to ICE
The recommendations don't limit your range at all. They only affect when you need to time your charging if you want to make use of 100% and want to follow the strictest interpretation.
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Post by phixion » Tue May 03, 2022 7:48 pm

Hypercube wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 6:59 pm
Following VW’s advice I find my car has a practical range of 150 miles in summer and only 80 miles in winter. A far cry from the 267 miles prominently featured in their marketing materials. One would think they could provide rather more detail to their recommendations.

Anyway, that is adequate for most day to day use but one has to go outside of the recommendations for any longer journeys or else resort to ICE
80 miles?!
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Hypercube
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Post by Hypercube » Tue May 03, 2022 7:57 pm

Yes, 80 miles is what I experience from 40% of the stated battery capacity in winter temperatures. That is charging to a maximum of 80% and not dropping below 40%

That would be a strict reading of VW’s advice of course. I accept that one can operate outside of this and have done so when journeys required.

sidehaas
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Post by sidehaas » Tue May 03, 2022 8:05 pm

Hypercube wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 7:57 pm
Yes, 80 miles is what I experience from 40% of the stated battery capacity in winter temperatures. That is charging to a maximum of 80% and not dropping below 40%

That would be a strict reading of VW’s advice of course. I accept that one can operate outside of this and have done so when journeys required.
It's a misunderstanding of the guidance, which contains nothing to say you can't use the whole of your battery (excluding buffers). The strict interpretation of the guidance is that you must drive off immediately after charging to 100% and charge immediately after getting home below 20% (edit - or 40% when it's very cold). A more relaxed interpretation would be that you should do those things within 12 hours or so and could perhaps relax slightly more if you are on 85% or 15% than 98% or 2% (for example). This is how I treat it for long journeys.
Last edited by sidehaas on Tue May 03, 2022 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Daveion
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Post by Daveion » Tue May 03, 2022 8:09 pm

Hypercube wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 6:59 pm
Following VW’s advice I find my car has a practical range of 150 miles in summer and only 80 miles in winter. A far cry from the 267 miles prominently featured in their marketing materials. One would think they could provide rather more detail to their recommendations.

Anyway, that is adequate for most day to day use but one has to go outside of the recommendations for any longer journeys or else resort to ICE
A practical range for day to day use doesn't have a bearing on the potential range when you need it.
You can set off at a 100% and run down to a level that suits your charging plans. That's still in the recommendations. You use the appropriate guidance for your specific journey. Just a different concept to an ICE.
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