Little top ups good ?

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itsjon
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Post by itsjon »

So... I know that charging between 20% and 80% is best most of the time for battery life.

but... In the couple of weeks we have had the id.3 we have found ourselves topping up to 80% after each day.
sometimes from 60%, other days from 70%

So... just topping up 10% or 20% to reach 80%

So... will it have a negative effect to continue to do so or is it best to run down to 20% all the time ?

Battery chemistry has changed so much over the past decades... im not sure what is deemed good practice now ... outside the 80% max suggestion.

ItshardtobuyId3
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Post by ItshardtobuyId3 »

Apparently it’s not good for the battery to keep topping it up every day.

https://www.electricarstore.co.uk/blog/ ... ed-to-know
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itsjon
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Post by itsjon »

ItshardtobuyId3 wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:30 pm Apparently it’s not good for the battery to keep topping it up every day.

https://www.electricarstore.co.uk/blog/ ... ed-to-know

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Warminster id
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Post by Warminster id »

I can only use public chargers and usually let the battery go down to between 15-30 depending on my next journey and charge to around 80
As I understand from other posts many other people on the forum seem to plug in every night to top up using cheap electricity.
So I’m a bit confused as to best practice and am also wondering if I could go to the local chargers to top up every night, I tend to use about 20% a day.
Advice welcomed
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itsjon
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Post by itsjon »

I guess we have been grazing electricity at home in the same way others top up the juice at public destination chargers really.
In order for (non place of work) grazing to work, by the very convenient nature of the concept the idea is to plug in whenever possible usually for short duration's ? which brings us back to frequent short charge cycles vs the optimum 20% to 80% 'fuller' charging you can only get at place of work or at home.
(excluding rapid charging which is additionally not as good for the battery ?)
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Post by ItshardtobuyId3 »

I’d think so long as you don’t keep doing it then it would be fine. So coming home and plugging in every night to get back to 80% is probably bad but plugging in a Tesco to get some free juice while you do shopping won’t do any harm.

I plan on only plugging mine in at home if I’d expect to go below 20% in summer and 40% in winter. For me two 4 hour cheap overnight charges should be enough to top up from 20 to 80% which should cover normal weekly use, so I’d do that two nights in a row a week and leave it unplugged the rest of the time unless I needed the extra range for something. But I’ll probably still grab some free juice at the supermarket… be rude not to.

Winter is perhaps going to be more complicated but I’m guessing I’ll need to plug in 3 nights in total.
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Post by Deleted User 192 »

Warminster id wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:34 pm As I understand from other posts many other people on the forum seem to plug in every night to top up using cheap electricity.

I charge when I need to, which is once or twice a week, from about 20% back up to 80%

On a 58kWh car and with a 5-hour off-peak window I can add about 60% in a single session.
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Post by Scratch »

The only potential issue I see with allowing the battery to drop to 20 or 40% before charging, is that you may well think you know when next a longer distance drive is required, but that's not guaranteed. You could be at 50%, not charge to 80%, only to discover you now need that fuller charge. I guess it's one of the drawbacks of EV ownership.
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Post by Deleted User 192 »

Scratch wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:31 am The only potential issue I see with allowing the battery to drop to 20 or 40% before charging, is that you may well think you know when next a longer distance drive is required, but that's not guaranteed. You could be at 50%, not charge to 80%, only to discover you now need that fuller charge. I guess it's one of the drawbacks of EV ownership.

In such a situation, I'd be happy to get to a rapid and pay to get to where I needed to - that works for my lifestyle, the chances of needing to do that are very small.
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Post by Scratch »

scott28tt wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:22 am
Scratch wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:31 am The only potential issue I see with allowing the battery to drop to 20 or 40% before charging, is that you may well think you know when next a longer distance drive is required, but that's not guaranteed. You could be at 50%, not charge to 80%, only to discover you now need that fuller charge. I guess it's one of the drawbacks of EV ownership.

In such a situation, I'd be happy to get to a rapid and pay to get to where I needed to - that works for my lifestyle, the chances of needing to do that are very small.
Unfortunately, in some parts of the UK, finding rapid chargers is like trying to find hens teeth.
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Post by Deleted User 192 »

Scratch wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:51 am
scott28tt wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:22 am
Scratch wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:31 am The only potential issue I see with allowing the battery to drop to 20 or 40% before charging, is that you may well think you know when next a longer distance drive is required, but that's not guaranteed. You could be at 50%, not charge to 80%, only to discover you now need that fuller charge. I guess it's one of the drawbacks of EV ownership.

In such a situation, I'd be happy to get to a rapid and pay to get to where I needed to - that works for my lifestyle, the chances of needing to do that are very small.
Unfortunately, in some parts of the UK, finding rapid chargers is like trying to find hens teeth.

What works for one owner doesn't necessarily work for everyone - same as having a home charger in the first place.
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Post by Daveion »

I dont think little top ups are good.
Since having my home charger I have moved from daily charging small top ups, sometimes less than 5%, to charging maybe once a week. So Im operating between 30% and 70%. The 40% top up is well contained within the 4 hour cheap tarrif with Octopus. My only concern with this is that an unexpected need for a longer trip at 30% SoC does not give you much range. Currently on a cold day for me that is around 50 miles.
Its a balance that each owner needs to find to suit their needs. I look at my ICE experiences and never drove into a filling station every day to put a gallon in. I would fill the tank when the fuel light was imminent because a filling station is never more than a few miles away. When I first got the BEV a year ago I applied what I had read and believed that if you are near a charge point, plug-it-in. Looking back that was unessecary and not good advice. I could have used more of the battery capacity before topping up.
In summary I think looking after the battery as an asset takes priority over the convenience and peace of mind of always having your car sitting at 80%.
If you need 80% every day then you are a higher miler and the wear and tear on the car will be commensurate with that mileage.
You can only optimise the care of the batteries for your ownership needs. They will degrade in the same way piston rings and other moving parts deteriorate with use in an ICE.
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Post by mediaguy »

In summary I think looking after the battery as an asset takes priority over the convenience and peace of mind of always having your car sitting at 80%.
It's an interesting take and you'll probably see differences between people on a 3-year lease who will never kill their battery (and who cares when you sell it, it will still be at ~90%) and people who plan to keep the car years.

I've had my last two cars for 16 years combined, so I know which camp I'm in and I can imagine an AA style service where you can check the condition of the battery before buying a second-hand car. It will be the EV equivalent of a full-service history. VW has already stated they are building a lock for battery capacity to 80%, presumably for people like Onto who want to make a load of cash for two years and then sell the car for as much money as possible.
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Post by G43FAN »

If you need to charge the car to complete your next days journey - charge it.. If you think you might have an unplanned journey and like to be prepared - charge it. Stop worrying about Battery degradation there is a warranty and most of these articles are based on speculation and an amount of regurgitating of other journalists.

Small charges are bad? - Hmm what about every time I press the brake pedal, isn't that a small charge?

Battery Life cycle calculations are based on Full discharge / Recharge scenarios, if you're running the car from 100% to 0% regularly then you are both brave and likely to see more (but probably negligible) degradation than if you are charging it by 10% every night. The biggest killer for charging is generation of heat and this is less likely with small charges.
With regards to plans for keeping this generation of EV cars long term, I doubt that will work out, the technology needs to move on and will, anyone still using their 2007 iphone?

If I am wrong and the batteries are that fragile, then we're all going to be in the same boat and VW (and others) will have another global lawsuit on their hand, the world loves a bit of litigation.
Daveion wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:25 am They will degrade in the same way piston rings and other moving parts deteriorate with use in an ICE.
Exactly - I don't recall queues of people with 3yr old ICE cars waving a Dyno test result at a dealer...
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Post by TheJimster »

G43FAN wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:56 pm If you need to charge the car to complete your next days journey - charge it.. If you think you might have an unplanned journey and like to be prepared - charge it. Stop worrying about Battery degradation there is a warranty and most of these articles are based on speculation and an amount of regurgitating of other journalists.

Small charges are bad? - Hmm what about every time I press the brake pedal, isn't that a small charge?

Battery Life cycle calculations are based on Full discharge / Recharge scenarios, if you're running the car from 100% to 0% regularly then you are both brave and likely to see more (but probably negligible) degradation than if you are charging it by 10% every night. The biggest killer for charging is generation of heat and this is less likely with small charges.
With regards to plans for keeping this generation of EV cars long term, I doubt that will work out, the technology needs to move on and will, anyone still using their 2007 iphone?

If I am wrong and the batteries are that fragile, then we're all going to be in the same boat and VW (and others) will have another global lawsuit on their hand, the world loves a bit of litigation.
Daveion wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:25 am They will degrade in the same way piston rings and other moving parts deteriorate with use in an ICE.
Exactly - I don't recall queues of people with 3yr old ICE cars waving a Dyno test result at a dealer...
This is pretty much my understanding too, i.e that a charge cycle is based on the battery being fully charged from empty to full, and that small incremental charges only count as a partial cycle, so do not cause accelerated battery degradation.

Your point about small charges happening constantly via brake regeneration is a very good one!

Although it's not entirely analogous, I use an app called accubattery to track battery usage and health on my phone. It calculates the effective charge cycle usage of each charging session. Any charges which finish at <80% soc are deemed to be much less impactive than charging to >80% soc.

I have been topping my battery up every night, and like the security of knowing that I can set off with a decent range every time I get in the car, reducing the chances of needing to do an unplanned rapid charge (at 10x the cost of charging at home).
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Post by ItshardtobuyId3 »

G43FAN wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:56 pm If you need to charge the car to complete your next days journey - charge it.. If you think you might have an unplanned journey and like to be prepared - charge it. Stop worrying about Battery degradation there is a warranty and most of these articles are based on speculation and an amount of regurgitating of other journalists.

Small charges are bad? - Hmm what about every time I press the brake pedal, isn't that a small charge?

Battery Life cycle calculations are based on Full discharge / Recharge scenarios, if you're running the car from 100% to 0% regularly then you are both brave and likely to see more (but probably negligible) degradation than if you are charging it by 10% every night. The biggest killer for charging is generation of heat and this is less likely with small charges.
With regards to plans for keeping this generation of EV cars long term, I doubt that will work out, the technology needs to move on and will, anyone still using their 2007 iphone?

If I am wrong and the batteries are that fragile, then we're all going to be in the same boat and VW (and others) will have another global lawsuit on their hand, the world loves a bit of litigation.
Daveion wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:25 am They will degrade in the same way piston rings and other moving parts deteriorate with use in an ICE.
Exactly - I don't recall queues of people with 3yr old ICE cars waving a Dyno test result at a dealer...
Some good points and I’d wondered about brake regeneration myself.

I’m the sort of person that runs in my ICE cars in as per the manual and never go over 3000 RPM until the oil has warned up even after that, so I see the battery on my new car the same way as that. It just new bits that need the care.

I almost never keep a car more than 4 years but it’s an expensive bit of kit and an I like to take care of it even though I’ll never suffer for having abused it. Also, one day might actually keep a car beyond the PCP!
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Post by Daveion »

Itshardtobuyid3 said.
"I’m the sort of person that runs in my ICE cars in as per the manual and never go over 3000 RPM until the oil has warned up even after that, so I see the battery on my new car the same way as that. It just new bits that need the care"

I'm glad I'm not the only person here who follows advice that is sound from the manual. A life time as an Engineer and understanding of maintenance in industry leaves me with respect for technology in general. I don't look after my battery as an asset because Im keeping the car for a lifetime. I'm caring for the battery because its the correct thing to do. I generally change my cars between 18-24 months so short term ownership isn't the driver.
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Post by Deleted User 192 »

+1

I may have the car for 4 years, possibly longer, either way it would be ideal for it to be on the road for as long as possible.
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Post by Daveion »

Exactly 👍
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