New ID3 disk brakes after 12k miles!

[Daveion]

Its difficult to tell from the photos but the material looks porous. Cast materials can contain high levels of impurities and seeing how bad that surface is I couldn't see the pads cleaning it up.
Good evidence though when you take it up with VW. That disc is really not right for age and mileage.

[MotMot]

I recon sticking calliper. Inside of the disc (main pic) is in a pretty bad way - but the outside of the other disc (just visible) looks fine. Shouldn’t be happening on a 13 month old car though…

[turntoport]

OB1CCFC; monkeyhanger's posts have a good handle on this: i.e. that dealer/tech is talking horsesh!t.
(i) Rusty discs are not an issue performance-wise - the coefficient of friction is much better than most new new shiny surfaces, and as Monkeyhanger points-out, surface corrosion will be wiped-off the grey cast-iron by a bit of decent brake application: the corrosion only gets to the deep-pitting stage (which is not your problem anyway) if the pads never do any significant clamping.
(ii) If your car is subjected to a salty + wet environment the discs will corrode fairly quickly. Corrosion will be noticeably accelerated by subjection to high temperature - e.g. if the brake caliper has jammed 'on' (for any reason, which could be mechanical or hydraulic), per 3twins.
(iii) If the discs are in fact warped - they should be able to show you the dti (dial test indicator) readings - you'd certainly feel juddering during brake application. But for this to occur on a yearling due to corrosion, er, pardon?!? You would need to be in a 'severe service environment' and neglectful of the vehicle for this to be outside of warranty. (Our id3 is now due November, so i'm guessing that somewhere in the 700 (?) page e-manual it probably states "...exercise the brakes periodically...")
(iv) the 'excess b-mode' line is b*ll*cks. Per monkeyhanger's explanation. If you've b-moded a lot and been generally gentle on the deceleration, your brakes are more likely to resemble MotMot's
unless your car's been parked in the sea.

A seized caliper usually only lets-go when it cools-down; continuing to drive with one seizing on (usual failure mode) often results in a shorter-than-anticipated car journey (i've tried this once...) driving with one seizing off often results in a shorter-than-anticipated car journey, followed by an unanticipated one to a hospital, but the latter mode is unlikely due to the high piston forces that the braking hydraulics can generate.

Looking at the pictures (and without the dti numbers but trusting the tech's determination that both discs were warped), the most likely cause seems disc overheating, that caused by a degree of lock-on: For both calipers to fail at the same time is an almost vanishingly small probability unless there is some form of system failure, e.g. car system applies brake uncommanded, or operator failure, e.g. driver's foot accidentally pressing brake pedal (it has been known...).

atb with the complaint.

[Flaming76]

Surely those disk could be cleaned up!!

[monkeyhanger]

I live 400 yards from the North Sea, and my brake discs on 15 VW/Audis bought from new have never been in that state. Cast iron gets a surface coating which your pads will rub away in use. In general use there is automatic and periodic light braking performed. VW has employed this "dry wipe" setting on every new car launched since 2012's introduction of the MK7 Golf.

I've always been a light braker, with techs commenting on my low levels of wear in my previous ICE vehicles at service time.

Either the disc is defective (a porous cast allowing moisture penetrative and corrosion below the surface which wouldn't normally happen) or there's been a clamping nalfunction.

VAG hide behind this "wear and tear parts" clause way too much. If you have a wear and tear part that isn't worn, then there is a fault somewhere, either on the component itself or a system that uses it.

[OB1CCFC]

Just had a call from the dealer general manager, they will forward photos and information to VW technical centre and get back to me …. No mention of any refunds or £££ contributions.
I mean just do the right thing….

[monkeyhanger]

Just had a call from the dealer general manager, they will forward photos and information to VW technical centre and get back to me …. No mention of any refunds or £££ contributions.
I mean just so they right thing….

I would ask to be copied.in on all correspondence. You don't know what's being said. Hopefully they'll pursue a warranty claim with a decent story to VW UK to back it up. It isn't in the dealership's best interests unfortunately - they get paid about £40ph for warranty work and charge upwards of £90ph to Joe Bloggs, as well as making a good margin on the parts themselves.

[monkeyhanger]

Hopefully this will get resolved with a refund, but the moral of the story is:-

1. If a dealership denies a warranty claim, get a second opinion from a different dealership group.

2. Your contract lies with the supplying dealer, not with VW UK. Ultimately it is they who you should pursue if VW UK deny you a warranty claim. If you
still get short shrift from them and have to go through the small claims court, it is the supplying dealership you cite.

3. Dealership labour rates are horrendous for the end user - get quotes from competent independent workshops - brakes, suspension work etc can be done by anyone who works on ICE cars.

[Daveion]

Hopefully this will get resolved with a refund, but the moral of the story is:-

1. If a dealership denies a warranty claim, get a second opinion from a different dealership group.

2. Your contract lies with the supplying dealer, not with VW UK. Ultimately it is they who you should pursue if VW UK deny you a warranty claim. If you
still get short shrift from them and have to go through the small claims court, it is the supplying dealership you cite.

Agreed

3. Dealership labour rates are horrendous for the end user - get quotes from competent independent workshops - brakes, suspension work etc can be done by anyone who works on ICE cars.

[OB1CCFC]

So I had a VW customer service conversation today, with the case manager after I wrote them a letter and included all the dealer invoices re ‘warped’ disk replacement on my 1 year old ID3 with 12k miles. I asked them if they thought that was reasonable and whether they would contribute to the cost.
They basically said ‘not a VW customer service role ’ but they did speak to the dealership who said they would not contribute to any costs.
The dealership said in writing that the cause was me driving in B mode too much and that if I continued it would basically be back again in a years time.
They have referred it to ‘VW technical’ and customer services said the dealer would call me when they received their view- not holding my breath.
Tbh I’ve spent enough time on this. I’m £430 in the hole and all I can do is change the dealer for now
and never buy VW again.

[G43FAN]

So I had a VW customer service conversation today, with the case manager after I wrote them a letter and included all the dealer invoices re ‘warped’ disk replacement on my 1 year old ID3 with 12k miles. I asked them if they thought that was reasonable and whether they would contribute to the cost.
They basically said ‘not a VW customer service role ’ but they did speak to the dealership who said they would not contribute to any costs.
The dealership said in writing that the cause was me driving in B mode too much and that if I continued it would basically be back again in a years time.
They have referred it to ‘VW technical’ and customer services said the dealer would call me when they received their view- not holding my breath.
Tbh I’ve spent enough time on this. I’m £430 in the hole and all I can do is change the dealer for now
and never buy VW again.

That's outrageous, how is it not a Customer Services issue/role?

"The dealership said in writing that the cause was me driving in B mode too much and that if I continued it would basically be back again in a years time. " - I would really love to see the technical documentation they used to back that up. Warping discs usually implies excessive heat build up not from lack of use.

[sidehaas]

I agree, it's outrageous. The idea that driving a fairly modest annual mileage in B mode would cause significant damage to brake components is ludicrous. If that were true the car would have to come with associated warnings. It's not like driving everywhere in B is unusual, it's one of only two modes available. And technically their argument seems flawed anyway - but I'm not sure that even matters much.

[ItshardtobuyId3]

It actually makes a bit angry reading this. It’s absolutely ridiculous to expect you to pay for a repair that is basically being blamed on a design fault.

Brand new discs don’t spontaneously warp when in storage and not in use so neither should they when not being used “enough” on the car. If B mode is damaging brakes they need to change the bloody software not blame the customer.

I was certainly not to told not to drive on B mode too much and occasionally break real hard to make sure they are used. It’s absurd and I really hope you get your money refunded.

[Utumno]

The dealership said in writing that the cause was me driving in B mode too much and that if I continued it would basically be back again in a years time.

I'd argue whether the vehicle is of merchantable quality in the absence of written contractual guidance about what "driving in B mode too much" actually constitutes.

You'll soon find them stumping up for replacements if your solicitor gets in touch with the threat of actual legal action.

[monkeyhanger]

The B mode explanation is absolute bollocks, whether in D mode or B mode, there is plenty of regen going , the only difference between D and B mode as far as regen and braking are concerned is that in D mode you press the brake pedal to regen and then brake beyond 0.25G, and in B mode you simply lift off the accelerator and if you need to decelerate more than the regen will do, the brakes come into play. If you do identical driving runs in B and D mode, the amount of reliance on the actual brake pads is the same.

My take on the technician's position us that they believe (incorrectly) that the issue in hand is caused by a lack of braking and that if you're driving in B mode all the time, you use the brakes less than someone who drives in D mode all the time.

Just goes to show that these technicians can't hold a candle to a proper time served mechanic who knows how to actually diagnose an issue and repair rather than rely on a computer to say replace part 112b and hope for the best.

I always drive in D mode, but it's a rare event that I can't slow down within the realms of the regen green bar. If I do more than 5% of my slowing down using the actual brakes, I'd be amazed, and I live 400 yards from the North Sea.

You need to make the supplying dealership aware of the situation, get their take and if they don't help you out, take them to the small claims court. If they're not local, it's unlikely they'll send legal representation and you should win by default.

[OB1CCFC]

Thanks for the comments and support all.
I actually can’t believe they think a customer paying for replacement discs on a car which has done 12k miles of absolutely sensible ‘per manual’ driving is in any way reasonable.
And I would suggest it can’t be non warranty ‘wear and tear’ if the suggestion is the brakes corroded or warped because they haven’t been used enough due to using regen braking ‘too much’ (notwithstanding monkeyhangers points) and the fact B mode is an integral VW design.
Let’s face it, if using regen braking ‘too much’ destroyed discs after 12k miles it would be a massive issue covered all over the place. It isnt.
I’ll have a think about how much more effort I want to put into this. But thanks.

[TheJimster]

Absolutely agree that this seems like complete nonsense, coming from someone who simply does not understand how the car's braking system works.

As others have said, both modes will use regenerative braking as the default, except in situations where greater braking force is required, then the mechanical brakes will kick in.

[monkeyhanger]

If you do go down the small claims route, I do think it would be useful for you to get a poll done here and on SpeakEV of people that own ID3s, their current mileage, whether they drive in B mode or D mode predominantly and confirmation that they've had no brake issues (avoiding user duplication between the 2 firums). If you can demonstrate that within a pool of maybe 100-200 people you are the only one affected, the this is not a common issue attributed to use of the B mode and therefore is most likely to be a defect of the components that should be rectified under warranty. Wear and tear items can be affected by manufacturing defects, there shouldn'tbe a blanket exclusion of wear and tear items from warranty, especially when it's demonstrable that the affected items weren't overly worn. Did the garage take disc/pad thicknesses of your components and provide an indication of expected thicknesses with respect to your mileage in order to determine they hadn't been used enough? It's a flimsy argument to say a wear and tear item has been prematurely worn/aged because they've been lightly used.

[Big277wave]

I think you should be asking VW when your car was manufactured given it's a first edition, and if it one of the cars that was parked in a field for several months before being shipped out to the UK. If moisture got between the pads and disc for several months it could well be the reason why there's lots of corrosion on the disc.

Would a dealer normally lift a car on a ramp and inspect the underside and brake discs as part of their PDI? Also with regard to the use of B mode, we all know it's a load of bo****ks. The B mode just re maps the regenerative braking to make it more like one pedal braking. I don't recall seeing anything in the manual saying that you should limit the use of it or that you should periodically brake hard to ensure the friction brakes are used. My car has quite a lot of black corrosion spots on the discs, I've only ever used B mode by mistake a couple of times as I prefer D mode. Most of the corrosion appeared after we spent a long weekend at Camber sands on the south coast last summer when there was a strong southerly wind and presumably the air was very damp and salty. I occasionally knock the drive into neutral when going down steep hills to make me use the friction brakes a bit.

There's a Cupra PHEV SUV around the corner from me that's a few months old, I noticed that both rear brake discs have only worn in for about half the width of the disc with a distinct band of rust where the pads don't yet rub on the discs. I wouldn't be surprised if they get changed in the future. As they're rear discs they don't get the same level of braking that the fronts do and as a PHEV presumably most of the braking is regenerative not friction.

[Bromsgroveuser]

Had exactly the same problem on my wife's UP after 11k ' Dealer wouldn't pay for it so I wrote to the main man at VW uk and his assistant got in touch agreed it wasn't fair wear and tear and told the dealer to refund the £140 i'd paid for two new discs to be fitted