Charging to 80%

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micklebrow
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Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:52 pm

Post by micklebrow »

Hi everyone, just want to ask that we all know that they recommend we only charge to 80%, and if 100% don't leave it sitting there for too long before you use it. But, what about all these plug-in Hybrids. I don't suppose they charge to 80%. So, whats the diff between my 58kwh battery and a 17.5kwh plug in when it comes to charging.

I'm sure its a simple answer.

Thanks
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monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

The 80% charge thing is mainly to routinely leave a decent headspace for increases in temp and proper battery cell cycling (to even out the number of charges across all cells).
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sidehaas
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Post by sidehaas »

I've not owned a PHEV but I've seen people discuss significant levels of battery degradation with them. I guess if you have a tiny battery then it's more important to use all of it, but equally if you get degradation over a few years you still have the petrol engine, so people's judgement about how to use their cars is different.
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G43FAN

Post by G43FAN »

Forget the expensive metal box it sits in .. It's a Lithium based Battery (LiPo, Li-Ion whatever) the advice to not store at levels of charge over 80% stands for any Lithium battery technology currently. Same for the temperature extremes, the C ratings for Charge and Discharge and the general care.
OB1CCFC
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Post by OB1CCFC »

sidehaas wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:08 am I've not owned a PHEV but I've seen people discuss significant levels of battery degradation with them. I guess if you have a tiny battery then it's more important to use all of it, but equally if you get degradation over a few years you still have the petrol engine, so people's judgement about how to use their cars is different.
This I think. I’ve had a number of chats with PHEV drivers and they have very significant degradation (and we’re very concerned if the same was on BEV’s).
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Leccy
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Post by Leccy »

We also have a Mini Cooper SE and there’s no recommendation to charge that to 80%, which is just as well given it’s only a 33kwh battery! Maybe the amount of battery available to the user is leaving headroom to keep the battery in good nick. Much lower range of course, but the Mini tends to do its wltp easily, sometimes more, the range estimate is stable too. They have very different characters, but I like them both for what they are. You can tell BMW/Mini have been in the EV game for a while, especially on the software side. On the other hand VW has its newer dedicated EV platform with OTA updating, they’ll get there on functionality and stability soon I’m sure.
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Big277wave
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Post by Big277wave »

My understanding is that a battery cycled between 80 and 20% can be expected to last for double the number of full cycles that a 100 to 0% battery would last, in this instance your 80 to 20% discharge counts as 60 % or 0.6 of a full 100% to 0% cycle so if a fully charged battery lasts for 1000 cycles your 80 - 20 one would last for 2 x 1000 / 0.6 = 3300 charge discharge cycles. This is why you are recommended to charge to 80% for normal use and only to 100% if you have a long trip planned. Of course if you're only keeping the car for 3 years on a PCP are you really bothered if you hand the car back with a degraded battery after all there is no penalty for doing so.
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steviebabes
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Post by steviebabes »

I have always charged my phones to 100% and I have one that's at least 6 years old that still lasts two days. The battery in the car is essentially a huge version of a phone battery. I only charge the car to 100% if I'm using it immediately after charging and going on a longish journey so it's never left long at full charge. If you always charge to 80% it will need a quite lot more charge/discharge cycles and this is what tends to degrade lithium based batteries.
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Big277wave
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Post by Big277wave »

No, it's the opposite Nickel Cadmium batteries like to be fully cycled, but Lithium ion batteries like to live in that 20 to 80% zone, although you have to charge it more often, it lasts 3 times as many cycles so it retains it's capacity for longer. Car manufacturers leave a buffer that you can't use to ensure that even when you charge it to an indicated 100% it is probably only charged to 90 to 95% to limit the 100% damage, they don't really want to have to deal with warranty claims down the line.

Phone manufacturers want you to buy a new phone after a few years so they tend to leave a smaller buffer as a degraded battery is one of the reasons we upgrade. They stop supporting them to encourage you to upgrade.
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steviebabes
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Post by steviebabes »

Ahh thanks for clarification. I never let the battery get below 20% if I can help it but I do feel the 80% recommendation is more to cover VW's warranty than anything else. The extra range and the 'full tank' feeling of a 100% charge is worth the slight degradation over the next 3 to 4 years. I will probably trade in for a new one before that anyway.
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duckworthsj
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Post by duckworthsj »

Leccy wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:35 pm We also have a Mini Cooper SE and there’s no recommendation to charge that to 80%, which is just as well given it’s only a 33kwh battery! Maybe the amount of battery available to the user is leaving headroom to keep the battery in good nick. Much lower range of course, but the Mini tends to do its wltp easily, sometimes more, the range estimate is stable too. They have very different characters, but I like them both for what they are. You can tell BMW/Mini have been in the EV game for a while, especially on the software side. On the other hand VW has its newer dedicated EV platform with OTA updating, they’ll get there on functionality and stability soon I’m sure.
We have same and totally agree with your comments.. The charging software and preferred charge times for-the Mini works flawlessly. It sends me a message when it is starting and When it reaches 100%. The VW offers more charge options and I suspect this is why the software is unreliable,
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Leccy
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Post by Leccy »

duckworthsj wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:32 pm We have same and totally agree with your comments.. The charging software and preferred charge times for-the Mini works flawlessly. It sends me a message when it is starting and When it reaches 100%. The VW offers more charge options and I suspect this is why the software is unreliable,
Ha yeah, the mini software is rock solid. Ours is a chilli red L3 too, but white roof and mirrors (changed to monochrome union jacks), fun car that’s for sure.
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365allthetime
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Post by 365allthetime »

Leccy wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:35 pm We also have a Mini Cooper SE and there’s no recommendation to charge that to 80%, which is just as well given it’s only a 33kwh battery! Maybe the amount of battery available to the user is leaving headroom to keep the battery in good nick. Much lower range of course, but the Mini tends to do its wltp easily, sometimes more, the range estimate is stable too. They have very different characters, but I like them both for what they are. You can tell BMW/Mini have been in the EV game for a while, especially on the software side. On the other hand VW has its newer dedicated EV platform with OTA updating, they’ll get there on functionality and stability soon I’m sure.
33kwh battery on the SE? Are you sure on that - that’s over half the size of the non tour id3? I had an SE and struggled to get 20 miles out of it in summer, 12 if that in winter.
Leccy
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Post by Leccy »

Think we may be cross purposes, the Mini Cooper SE (electric) has a 33 kWh battery, 145miles wltp
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365allthetime
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Post by 365allthetime »

Ah yes, I had countryman se 😂
Wurzzle
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Post by Wurzzle »

duckworthsj wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:32 pm
Leccy wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:35 pm We also have a Mini Cooper SE and there’s no recommendation to charge that to 80%, which is just as well given it’s only a 33kwh battery! Maybe the amount of battery available to the user is leaving headroom to keep the battery in good nick. Much lower range of course, but the Mini tends to do its wltp easily, sometimes more, the range estimate is stable too. They have very different characters, but I like them both for what they are. You can tell BMW/Mini have been in the EV game for a while, especially on the software side. On the other hand VW has its newer dedicated EV platform with OTA updating, they’ll get there on functionality and stability soon I’m sure.
We have same and totally agree with your comments.. The charging software and preferred charge times for-the Mini works flawlessly. It sends me a message when it is starting and When it reaches 100%. The VW offers more charge options and I suspect this is why the software is unreliable,
We also have a 2015 22kw Renault Zoe that we've owned from new. It's been charged to 100% virtually every night on either our 7kw wallbox, or on a granny cable. Had probably less than 20 rapid charges in its lifetime. It's range has not changed over 7 years which is reflected in it's battery SOH which is 98%, the same as the day we collected it. I regularly check it's SOH and SOC with the excellent CanZe app and a Bluetooth OBD dongle.
As with the Mini the charging software/scheduling is simple and faultless. I get a text notification at the start and end of every charge, also get a text should the charge stop unexpectedly which is very useful.
Unlike the id3 which has a maximum AC charge rate of 11kw the Zoe's is 22kw.
The Zoe's actual battery size is just under 26Kw, there's at 2kw buffer either end of the usable 22kw.
Still love our id3, but the overcomplexity and the unreliability of the charge scheduling is by far its biggest let down. When you've seen how it should be done, it's difficult to understand how VW managed to do it so badly.
🤞 3.0 sorts some of this out.
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And a 2015 22kw Renault Zoe (battery 98% S.O.H after 45k)
duckworthsj
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Post by duckworthsj »

33kwh battery on the SE? Are you sure on that - that’s over half the size of the non tour id3? I had an SE and struggled to get 20 miles out of it in summer, 12 if that in winter.
[/quote]
Yes. The battery is about half the size of the VW which is why the ‘real life range’ is around 110 -120 miles. BMW argue that most people’s trips are less than 40 miles so why have a big battery that costs more, weighs more etc.

Yes it is sometimes inconvenient but if you look on the Mini forum people manage with it. If we go on vacation we tend to use the VW because of the extra range and space for stuff like ski gear.
But IMHO the Mini is a more fun car and since it is based on the I3 architecture is ‘sorted’
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