Id3 battery degradation (Preliminary data)

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MotMot
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Post by MotMot »

From the id3 FB page someone posted a link to this web page - it’s in German so use Google to translate if need be etc…

https://teslamag.de/news/forscher-akku- ... dLKBQq2wjk

The TL;DR is - the id3 battery is robust and should have a long long life.

TU University Munich bought a second hand id3 and two ‘modules’ from written off id3’s and gave them lots of charge cycles to measure the deg.

For the modules - giving a factor 1 charge discharge cycle (same as 58kw charging and 58kw discharging) they found that after 600 cycles the battery was at 90% of its initial capacity.

This means that if you fully charged and discharged your car 600 times at high rates (use up the battery in 1 hour! So flat out on the motorway) by the warranty mileage (150k km) it was still at 90%.

Cycling at 11kw (ac rates) the rates of degradation were even lower.

It’s not a huge sample number - but it’s an interesting study. Read the link if you want to know more.

Bengeo
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Post by Bengeo »

Very interesting. The full technical article is in English: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 822000133/
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OB1CCFC
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Post by OB1CCFC »

Some interesting stuff in there.
Obviously some issues with current ID3 motorway performance due to mainly higher than expected drag and to a lesser extent some power train component issues. But urban driving excellent performance.
They will do similar with an M3 and compare. That will be interesting.
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MotMot
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Post by MotMot »

Bengeo wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:04 am Very interesting. The full technical article is in English: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 822000133/
👍👍👏
sidehaas
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Post by sidehaas »

Thanks both, the top level conclusions of that seemed to be good news and there was some interesting stuff about the engineering detail of what we are driving too.
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monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

OB1CCFC wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:22 pm Some interesting stuff in there.
Obviously some issues with current ID3 motorway performance due to mainly higher than expected drag and to a lesser extent some power train component issues. But urban driving excellent performance.
They will do similar with an M3 and compare. That will be interesting.
Higher than expected drag at motorway speeds? This'll be an issue for all cars driven at motorway speeds, with the exponential increase in air resistance as speed increases above 30mph.

Battery longevity findings aren't a surprise either - VW warrant the battery to retain 70% original capacity for 100k miles/8.years for the absolute worst case abuse you could throw at it, because VW can't dictate how you must charge/discharge the battery under the warranty. There's a huge margin between expected deterioration under normal use and warranty minimum SOC and will be a respectable margin between worst case and warranty minimum SOC. VW paying out for new battery cells or whole battery arrays will be an incredibly rare event based on the outcome of VW's own accelerated use/ageing study findings.

If there isn't a high degree of time based deterioration beyond 10 years, I'd bet that a a battery relatively well looked after by VWs recommendations should do an easy 300k miles/15 years down to 70% retained capacity.
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Chivers
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Post by Chivers »

Bengeo wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:04 am Very interesting. The full technical article is in English: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 822000133/
IMHO these articles are very different.

IMHO the German article is written in fairly plain language, and the article in English is written in scientific gobble-di-gook. I got more out of the German article translated into English.

My qualification: I speak fluent German and English. I gave up on University level science because the other male students were only interested in coefficients, the periodic table, and solubility curves... :lol:
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OB1CCFC
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Post by OB1CCFC »

monkeyhanger wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 5:10 pm
OB1CCFC wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:22 pm Some interesting stuff in there.
Obviously some issues with current ID3 motorway performance due to mainly higher than expected drag and to a lesser extent some power train component issues. But urban driving excellent performance.
They will do similar with an M3 and compare. That will be interesting.
Higher than expected drag at motorway speeds? This'll be an issue for all cars driven at motorway speeds, with the exponential increase in air resistance as speed increases above 30mph.

Battery longevity findings aren't a surprise either - VW warrant the battery to retain 70% original capacity for 100k miles/8.years for the absolute worst case abuse you could throw at it, because VW can't dictate how you must charge/discharge the battery under the warranty. There's a huge margin between expected deterioration under normal use and warranty minimum SOC and will be a respectable margin between worst case and warranty minimum SOC. VW paying out for new battery cells or whole battery arrays will be an incredibly rare event based on the outcome of VW's own accelerated use/ageing study findings.

If there isn't a high degree of time based deterioration beyond 10 years, I'd bet that a a battery relatively well looked after by VWs recommendations should do an easy 300k miles/15 years down to 70% retained capacity.
Yes I know drag increases significantly at motorway speeds😉
I was referring to this section—>

“ The achievable electric range outperforms WLTP specifications in realistic urban to interurban scenarios, whilst the electric range is restricted in the realistic highway scenario. The main origin can be traced back to large wheel-to-distance losses by, e.g., the drag resistance, accounting for up to 82% of the total energy losses. Besides, the second-largest lever for an improved efficiency lies in the powertrain unit, which could be improved by larger advanced materials/technologies, e.g., such as the usage of SiC-MOSFET-Inverters, and improved thermal management strategies, e.g., by vehicle state-dependent thermal control windows during operation distinguishing between different driving and charging modes”.
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monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

OB1CCFC wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:24 am
monkeyhanger wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 5:10 pm
OB1CCFC wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:22 pm Some interesting stuff in there.
Obviously some issues with current ID3 motorway performance due to mainly higher than expected drag and to a lesser extent some power train component issues. But urban driving excellent performance.
They will do similar with an M3 and compare. That will be interesting.
Higher than expected drag at motorway speeds? This'll be an issue for all cars driven at motorway speeds, with the exponential increase in air resistance as speed increases above 30mph.

Battery longevity findings aren't a surprise either - VW warrant the battery to retain 70% original capacity for 100k miles/8.years for the absolute worst case abuse you could throw at it, because VW can't dictate how you must charge/discharge the battery under the warranty. There's a huge margin between expected deterioration under normal use and warranty minimum SOC and will be a respectable margin between worst case and warranty minimum SOC. VW paying out for new battery cells or whole battery arrays will be an incredibly rare event based on the outcome of VW's own accelerated use/ageing study findings.

If there isn't a high degree of time based deterioration beyond 10 years, I'd bet that a a battery relatively well looked after by VWs recommendations should do an easy 300k miles/15 years down to 70% retained capacity.
Yes I know drag increases significantly at motorway speeds😉
I was referring to this section—>

“ The achievable electric range outperforms WLTP specifications in realistic urban to interurban scenarios, whilst the electric range is restricted in the realistic highway scenario. The main origin can be traced back to large wheel-to-distance losses by, e.g., the drag resistance, accounting for up to 82% of the total energy losses. Besides, the second-largest lever for an improved efficiency lies in the powertrain unit, which could be improved by larger advanced materials/technologies, e.g., such as the usage of SiC-MOSFET-Inverters, and improved thermal management strategies, e.g., by vehicle state-dependent thermal control windows during operation distinguishing between different driving and charging modes”.
The component comments are meaningless without some kind of context - 2%, 5%, 10% savings? The author won't know for sure but I'd hope for an educated guess. If we're talking about incurring a £500 per car cost to improve the efficiency by 1%, they're not going to be bothered. 10% better economy that can be achieved far cheaper than the cost of 10% more battery cells (without taking into account the weight of those extra cells) and I'm sure VW would have been all over it. I seriously doubt the report contains anything technical that VW weren't already aware of or explored during research, but will have done cost/benefit analysis and its a no.

If it wouldn't harm the battery (short term,or long term for warranty exposure concerns) to run cold on short/slow journeys (and suggestions in that report are that it wouldn't), its a pity that you couldn't jump in the car and relay to the car your intention for the journey (maybe press a "short journey" button for journeys less than 5 miles), it would leave out battery warming that hammers short urban journey efficiency. If you don't opt in to the short journey then battery heating takes place as normal. For anyone looking to abuse the facility, after 5 miles or when a certain speed is exceeded (e.g.45mph), the battery heating kicks in anyway.
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MotMot
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Post by MotMot »

Figure 8 is the most useful - shows the decrease in WLPT range with speed. Optimum is 30km/h (600+ km range!) down to 210km flat out!

TBH - I'm surprised the curve is nearly straight - expected more of a drop off with increased speed...

Anyway - nice to have some independent DATA from the paper rather than the heavily curated snippets we get from VW.
Loads of info in the paper - including how the actual battery capacity is greater than that advertised by VW - I guess thats the way with battery cells - you can get a good pack and a bad pack! So VW probably go with a conservative value..

Looking to the future, I wonder if VW will use the margin outside of the 58kwh we are 'allowed' to change/increase the usable capacity as the battery degrades. I believe this is what Tesla did/do... so aparent deg to the user is much less than the actual deg to the pack as a whole.

Either way, the paper is a good report for the ID3 I think. Except the car isnt as efficient (aero/mech/electronic) as it could be - but I think we all knew that as its not as low and slippery as a M3 which is the leader in that game.
monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Taking into account the ID3's high and blunt nose, I do think it's still very aerodynamic for its overall shape. Lots of other things to consider that govern shape, like collision data, especially with respect to oedestrian considerations. When most of the competition out there is an SUV, its better than most. Would be interesting to see the impact of the slightly sharper nose of the Born on efficiency vs an otherwise identically specced ID3.

If there's one improvement I'd like to see in the car's front end, it would be the removal of the rhombus indentations trying to replicate a grille - purely because they are a bugger to clean, especially on our white ID3 where the much trapped is very noticeable.

VW have always been Conservative with outputs - lots of stories of people getting their cars dynoed and seeing 5-10% more power/torque than advertised and significantly quicker 0-62mph times.
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Splitty
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Post by Splitty »

The ID3 has a drag coefficient of 0.26 which is only bettered by some of the newer cars like the BMW i4 (0.24 - 0.40 depending on model), the Tesla model 3 (0.23) and the Lucid Air (0.21). So contrary to peoples opinions, the ID3 is exceptionally aerodynamic and a class leader in hatchback design. Seehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobil ... oefficient
MotMot
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Post by MotMot »

But to calculate the drag you have to multiply the Cd by the frontal area. Which for the taller id3 is greater than a M3 for example.

BTW - those of you with alloy wheels - that increases the id3 Cd by 0.02/0.03 😁 over the plastic trims.
monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

MotMot wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:44 am But to calculate the drag you have to multiply the Cd by the frontal area. Which for the taller id3 is greater than a M3 for example.

BTW - those of you with alloy wheels - that increases the id3 Cd by 0.02/0.03 😁 over the plastic trims.
I think that all splitty is saying is that for.a normal height hatchback shape, the ID3 is about as good as it gets, for those that don't want/need a low coupe or huge SUV ?which will be worse). Its not as if the M3 will be magnitudes better than the ID3 in efficiency.

I'll keep my alloys, really not keen on steel wheels, especially given the crazy price of those wheel trims to replace if they get lifted or fall off,an extra fiver a year on my electricity bill to cover the difference is a small price to pay to have them.
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MotMot
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Post by MotMot »

😂
There is a paper (lost the link) on the id3 aerodynamics. Some interesting stuff in it. Those two lines on top of the wing mirror stubs reduce wind noise on motorways by a few db. Also a retractable curtain behind the radiator - so when not needed there’s no airflow through it improving the aero.

But I’d argue that whilst it pretends to be a hatchback size - it’s the same height as small crossovers. Exactly the same height as our neighbours Q2. New Golfs are a fair bit lower - as is an M3 (ever sat in one - really low - not that I’m a fan..)

Not moaning - I love mine. Great car. This last weekend (moving house) it’s swallowed loads of rubbish for trips to the tip without any problems or marks. Transforming into the family car for a weekend trip down south this weekend.
OB1CCFC
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Post by OB1CCFC »

Ive had 5 adults and dog in the boot of my ID3 for a number of longish runs. It was fantastic.
I’ll have a look at the new Megane EV when it’s out but I can’t imagine it could do anything approaching that in comfort…
The ID3 is a very good car. A bit more efficiency especially at motorway speeds and short trips in winter and it would be there. I’d settle for better brakes as well tbh😛
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Bengeo
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Post by Bengeo »

OB1CCFC wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:24 pm Ive had 5 adults and dog in the boot of my ID3

I didn't realise the boot was that big! 😛
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OB1CCFC
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Post by OB1CCFC »

Bengeo wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:32 pm
OB1CCFC wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:24 pm Ive had 5 adults and dog in the boot of my ID3

I didn't realise the boot was that big! 😛
Cavernous 😉
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