EV or PHEV short journeys

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herrwibi
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Joined: Thu May 12, 2022 8:25 pm

Post by herrwibi » Thu May 12, 2022 8:35 pm

Hi all,

This is going to be my first EV or PHEV car so i've done a bit of research.

I've been looking at the ID.3 and Cupra Born( not long released), very similar cars. The only problem i see is that my journey to work is only 7/8miles each way and maybe another mile on top if i decide to venture to the gym or shops.

I've read that short journeys kill the battery on EV's and not sure if this has killed that option ? My work has electric charging points on site which is why i'm looking into this and have seen the government are doing grants if your installing a home charger. Still to look into this more. Currently driving a Cupra 300 so my MPG isn't great and with fuel prices going up its not looking pretty. I can average 200-250 miles out a tank at a cost of £60-70.

Just wanted some feed back on people who use there EV cars for shorter journeys and how it holds up. Wasn't sure where to post this so i'm hoping this is the right place.

Thanks.

djkav
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Post by djkav » Thu May 12, 2022 8:57 pm

Even a PHEV does 30 miles on average in electric only mode. So if the battery problem did exist. Then surely, by the same logic the PHEV batteries would behave the same.

I think it's more the charge cycles, complete discharge and 100% charging that would cause the battery to reduce capacity over time. I don't think it's the amount of short journeys. That's what EVs do best.
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sidehaas
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Post by sidehaas » Thu May 12, 2022 9:00 pm

I've never heard of short journeys damaging the battery. If they did, that would be a problem for PHEVs too. On the contrary I think batteries work very well over short distances. Many ID3s suffered poor consumption on short journeys in winter because the car used lots of energy to get more heat than was really necessary in to the battery, but that problem is a bit unique and has now been solved for new cars. We use ours for short journeys every day and it's ideal. (Also long journeys at weekends or for occasional work trips.)
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turntoport
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Post by turntoport » Thu May 12, 2022 9:06 pm

herrwibi; 'cold-starts' for ev's are not an issue. Yes, they use some battery energy to self-heat up to optimal temperature, so if you do mainly short runs your achieved 'miles-per' will be low compared to longer distance drivers. But use a sensible charging regime and, where feasible to be plugged-in, the 'pre-heat' options before setting-off (especially from work, in winter) and you'll be fine. While you may be concerned about the 'fuel economy', remember that during a cold-start, your ice is not only shoving unburnt petrol out the exhaust valves (cat efficiency is likely to be < 50% for the first few minutes) but also washing neat petrol over the bores and rings, removing the oil from the piston-ring/bore interface. Final cold-start score: e 7, ice 0.
good luck!

herrwibi
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Post by herrwibi » Thu May 12, 2022 9:29 pm

sidehaas wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 9:00 pm
I've never heard of short journeys damaging the battery. If they did, that would be a problem for PHEVs too. On the contrary I think batteries work very well over short distances. Many ID3s suffered poor consumption on short journeys in winter because the car used lots of energy to get more heat than was really necessary in to the battery, but that problem is a bit unique and has now been solved for new cars. We use ours for short journeys every day and it's ideal. (Also long journeys at weekends or for occasional work trips.)
It's not so much damaging the battery its more the reduction in the miles you get out the battery when doing shorter journeys that i was concerned about if it was going to be worth running as in if i was only getting 100miles with doing shorter journeys . If you don't mind me asking what are you averaging when doing smaller journeys as in miles per kwh?
turntoport wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 9:06 pm
herrwibi; 'cold-starts' for ev's are not an issue. Yes, they use some battery energy to self-heat up to optimal temperature, so if you do mainly short runs your achieved 'miles-per' will be low compared to longer distance drivers. But use a sensible charging regime and, where feasible to be plugged-in, the 'pre-heat' options before setting-off (especially from work, in winter) and you'll be fine. While you may be concerned about the 'fuel economy', remember that during a cold-start, your ice is not only shoving unburnt petrol out the exhaust valves (cat efficiency is likely to be < 50% for the first few minutes) but also washing neat petrol over the bores and rings, removing the oil from the piston-ring/bore interface. Final cold-start score: e 7, ice 0.
good luck!
I understand the miles per kwh would be low, i'm just not sure how low if that makes sense if its going to work out better to run an EV or look at a cheaper petrol. I'm unsure how all the options work on the car as i have yet to test drive or go in and look but that is happening soon but the pre-heat option while being plugged in is something i have looked at . How long does it take to pre-heat while being plugged in? My work has charging ports so i will be using them most of the time and trying not to use the home charger when and if i get an EV.

sidehaas
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Post by sidehaas » Fri May 13, 2022 5:38 am

herrwibi wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 9:29 pm
sidehaas wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 9:00 pm
I've never heard of short journeys damaging the battery. If they did, that would be a problem for PHEVs too. On the contrary I think batteries work very well over short distances. Many ID3s suffered poor consumption on short journeys in winter because the car used lots of energy to get more heat than was really necessary in to the battery, but that problem is a bit unique and has now been solved for new cars. We use ours for short journeys every day and it's ideal. (Also long journeys at weekends or for occasional work trips.)
It's not so much damaging the battery its more the reduction in the miles you get out the battery when doing shorter journeys that i was concerned about if it was going to be worth running as in if i was only getting 100miles with doing shorter journeys . If you don't mind me asking what are you averaging when doing smaller journeys as in miles per kwh?
turntoport wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 9:06 pm
herrwibi; 'cold-starts' for ev's are not an issue. Yes, they use some battery energy to self-heat up to optimal temperature, so if you do mainly short runs your achieved 'miles-per' will be low compared to longer distance drivers. But use a sensible charging regime and, where feasible to be plugged-in, the 'pre-heat' options before setting-off (especially from work, in winter) and you'll be fine. While you may be concerned about the 'fuel economy', remember that during a cold-start, your ice is not only shoving unburnt petrol out the exhaust valves (cat efficiency is likely to be < 50% for the first few minutes) but also washing neat petrol over the bores and rings, removing the oil from the piston-ring/bore interface. Final cold-start score: e 7, ice 0.
good luck!
I understand the miles per kwh would be low, i'm just not sure how low if that makes sense if its going to work out better to run an EV or look at a cheaper petrol. I'm unsure how all the options work on the car as i have yet to test drive or go in and look but that is happening soon but the pre-heat option while being plugged in is something i have looked at . How long does it take to pre-heat while being plugged in? My work has charging ports so i will be using them most of the time and trying not to use the home charger when and if i get an EV.
For short journeys my m/kwh are better than long journeys. It's very speed related and anything more than about 20 minutes involves me going on a motorway because of where I live. At the moment I'm averaging over 4mi/kWh on short journeys and in winter it was probably 3.5mi/kWh (my car doesn't have the battery heating issues that earlier ID3s do.) If I try really hard I can do the school run (flat, 20mph roads) at over 5mi/kWh (this involves keeping heating/Aircon off, but the journey is short enough that you wouldn't have either in an ICE car anyway). On the motorway the best I've ever managed is 3.7 and usually below 3.5 at 70mph.
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adas144
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Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:47 am

Post by adas144 » Fri May 13, 2022 6:23 am

My other half's ID3 is still on order, but my Polestar suffers this. (Just to clarify, not damaging the battery, but poor range on short journeys). I have a 6 mile journey to work and If I only did this journey my range overall would be around 120 miles. The reason for this is the losses in getting your battery to operating temperature. By the time you've reached work after 5-6 miles your battery probably doesn't even reach standard operating temperature. In the summer its not as bad but still very noticeable. Once the battery is warm the range is fine again, It's just that initial 5-10 miles which isn't great for efficiency and if this is the only journey you do during the week you wont get near the claimed range. You'd get this on a longer run.

MotMot
Posts: 606
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Post by MotMot » Fri May 13, 2022 6:50 am

Just to turn your Q around - why get a PHEV when you’ll just be dragging 500kg of engine and gearbox around for no purpose. BEV fine - it’s number of low to full charges that degrades the battery (and time a bit). If you take 10% a day - and charge every five days that’s a long time!

Finally - the first non Vw tests on the battery suggest it is very robust and does not suffer from high deg.

andrewparker
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Post by andrewparker » Fri May 13, 2022 7:25 am

Short journeys aren’t going to kill the battery, or the motor, you’ll just not achieve optimal efficiency because the battery isn’t at the ideal temperature. You could precondition the battery (not sure how well that works on the ID.3), but with such a short commute I wouldn’t bother.

The same journey done repeatedly in an ICE car is going to be far more damaging because the engine will never get up to temperature which is going to increase wear.
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monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger » Fri May 13, 2022 7:39 am

andrewparker wrote:
Fri May 13, 2022 7:25 am

The same journey done repeatedly in an ICE car is going to be far more damaging because the engine will never get up to temperature which is going to increase wear.
Not much of an issue with modern oils that don't need to warm up to be near optimum viscosity on ICE. Biggest ICE issues with short journeys are DPFs/GPFs filling up and forcing regens as passive regens as per longer journeys aren't happening. Forced regens give shockingly low mpg on petrols with GPF, less of an effect for DPFs.
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ItshardtobuyId3
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Post by ItshardtobuyId3 » Sat May 14, 2022 8:17 pm

I’d steer well clear of a PHEV if you are only doing short journeys. The engine will hardly ever get used and you could find when you do use it your fuel will have gone off and you end up breaking down. This new E10 fuel doesn’t last very long. The shelf life is only 3 months.

I’d not worry too much about poor efficiency in the winter. I’m doing about 190 miles a week and it’s costing me about £4 in electricity.
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MattgID3
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Post by MattgID3 » Sat May 14, 2022 9:19 pm

I have a mini countryman phev whist waiting for the id3, it only has about a 20mile range in summer on ev and about 10 in winter. Can't wait for the id3.

I run the battery flat and recharge almost daily to full with no noticeable degradation of the battery
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Jamie1c
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Post by Jamie1c » Sun May 15, 2022 7:33 am

MattgID3 wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 9:19 pm
I have a mini countryman phev whist waiting for the id3, it only has about a 20mile range in summer on ev and about 10 in winter. Can't wait for the id3.

I run the battery flat and recharge almost daily to full with no noticeable degradation of the battery
I have a Mitsubishi Outlander phev. The only time I've had the full 28 miles was the day I picked it up. I'm pretty much the same as you, 20 miles in the summer and 10-12 in the winter and charge almost daily. Every journey I make is a short journey, school runs etc. 3 and a half years old and it has under 11k miles on the clock. At a guess, about 75% of those miles were done on electric. Love the car but can't wait for my id3.
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gailjon
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Post by gailjon » Sun May 15, 2022 7:49 pm

MY Sorento PHEV is pretty much always 28 mile EV range with HVAC on and 30 miles range with it off. It combines perfectly with the wife's ID3 because we need 6/7 seats and the PHEV prevents any issues when driving to Scotland (330 miles) to see parents in Law.

I am looking at what 7 seat bevs will appear but so far not much on the horizon. Kia EV9 looks good though.
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