Home Energy usage?

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monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Jeez, 9000kWh?

We only used 3000 kWh of electricity per year prior to getting our 2 x ID3. 4 bed terraced townhouse.

Bear in mind that the missus dries clothes exclusively with a tumble dryer, we have a dish washer we're a family of 4 (the kids are forever leaving lights on) and there are 4 big tellies in the house that get a lot of daily use.

Every bit of lighting in our house is LED though, all but 1 of the TV is very recent (our old LCD telly, a 40" Sony bought in 2006 used to kick out tons of heat compared to the new ones, and probably used 3x the power). Heating and hot water is all gas, but the oven is electric. All appliances except the tumble dryer are A rated or higher. How do you use 9000kWh a year before EV use?
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Scratch
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Post by Scratch »

monkeyhanger wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:13 pm Jeez, 9000kWh?

We only used 3000 kWh of electricity per year prior to getting our 2 x ID3. 4 bed terraced townhouse.

Bear in mind that the missus dries clothes exclusively with a tumble dryer, we have a dish washer we're a family of 4 (the kids are forever leaving lights on) and there are 4 big tellies in the house that get a lot of daily use.

Every bit of lighting in our house is LED though, all but 1 of the TV is very recent (our old LCD telly, a 40" Sony bought in 2006 used to kick out tons of heat compared to the new ones, and probably used 3x the power). Heating and hot water is all gas, but the oven is electric. All appliances except the tumble dryer are A rated or higher. How do you use 9000kWh a year before EV use?
I don't think it's me you are referring to but my anticipated usage is probably going to be about 10,000kWh. This is a 3 year old, modern insulated, detached, 3 bed bungalow. We have an ID3 since Last September.
We have an ASHP. If you are thinking of getting one, as this government seems to want everyone to do, DON'T! Or at least, make sure you do your homework and with the energy crisis as it is, make sure you have a very healthy bank account.
monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Scratch wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:24 pm
monkeyhanger wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:13 pm Jeez, 9000kWh?

We only used 3000 kWh of electricity per year prior to getting our 2 x ID3. 4 bed terraced townhouse.

Bear in mind that the missus dries clothes exclusively with a tumble dryer, we have a dish washer we're a family of 4 (the kids are forever leaving lights on) and there are 4 big tellies in the house that get a lot of daily use.

Every bit of lighting in our house is LED though, all but 1 of the TV is very recent (our old LCD telly, a 40" Sony bought in 2006 used to kick out tons of heat compared to the new ones, and probably used 3x the power). Heating and hot water is all gas, but the oven is electric. All appliances except the tumble dryer are A rated or higher. How do you use 9000kWh a year before EV use?
I don't think it's me you are referring to but my anticipated usage is probably going to be about 10,000kWh. This is a 3 year old, modern insulated, detached, 3 bed bungalow. We have an ID3 since Last September.
We have an ASHP. If you are thinking of getting one, as this government seems to want everyone to do, DON'T! Or at least, make sure you do your homework and with the energy crisis as it is, make sure you have a very healthy bank account.
Is that 10000kWh before or after buying an EV?

I cab only assume everyone with pre-EV usage 6-10000kWh of electricity.have a supercomputerrunning 24/7.mining bitcoin or all their heating is electric rather than gas.
Cupra Born V2 e-boost 230ps Aurora Blue, replaced ID3 PP Family

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Scratch
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Post by Scratch »

monkeyhanger wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:21 pm
Scratch wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:24 pm
monkeyhanger wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:13 pm Jeez, 9000kWh?

We only used 3000 kWh of electricity per year prior to getting our 2 x ID3. 4 bed terraced townhouse.

Bear in mind that the missus dries clothes exclusively with a tumble dryer, we have a dish washer we're a family of 4 (the kids are forever leaving lights on) and there are 4 big tellies in the house that get a lot of daily use.

Every bit of lighting in our house is LED though, all but 1 of the TV is very recent (our old LCD telly, a 40" Sony bought in 2006 used to kick out tons of heat compared to the new ones, and probably used 3x the power). Heating and hot water is all gas, but the oven is electric. All appliances except the tumble dryer are A rated or higher. How do you use 9000kWh a year before EV use?
I don't think it's me you are referring to but my anticipated usage is probably going to be about 10,000kWh. This is a 3 year old, modern insulated, detached, 3 bed bungalow. We have an ID3 since Last September.
We have an ASHP. If you are thinking of getting one, as this government seems to want everyone to do, DON'T! Or at least, make sure you do your homework and with the energy crisis as it is, make sure you have a very healthy bank account.
Is that 10000kWh before or after buying an EV?

I cab only assume everyone with pre-EV usage 6-10000kWh of electricity.have a supercomputerrunning 24/7.mining bitcoin or all their heating is electric rather than gas.
10,000kWh including charging the EV. 7,500 without. (it's guess work for the EV consumption at the moment.)
No supercomputers here, just my iPhone. As I said, we have an ASHP (the future?) and they eat electricity at this time of year.
Smitten
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Post by Smitten »

monkeyhanger wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:13 pm Jeez, 9000kWh?

We only used 3000 kWh of electricity per year prior to getting our 2 x ID3. 4 bed terraced townhouse.

Bear in mind that the missus dries clothes exclusively with a tumble dryer, we have a dish washer we're a family of 4 (the kids are forever leaving lights on) and there are 4 big tellies in the house that get a lot of daily use.

Every bit of lighting in our house is LED though, all but 1 of the TV is very recent (our old LCD telly, a 40" Sony bought in 2006 used to kick out tons of heat compared to the new ones, and probably used 3x the power). Heating and hot water is all gas, but the oven is electric. All appliances except the tumble dryer are A rated or higher. How do you use 9000kWh a year before EV use?
Sorry was that in reply to my post?

I think the key point in your reply is "heating and hot water is all gas".

Our 9000kWh is for an all electric house with an air source heat pump running pretty much 24/7 in colder weather and 1 EV.
Tour Pro S 77kWh, heatpump, 19" Andoya wheels, Glacier White
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shire-dweller
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Post by shire-dweller »

Scratch wrote: We have an ASHP [Air Source Heat Pump]. If you are thinking of getting one, as this government seems to want everyone to do, DON'T! Or at least, make sure you do your homework and with the energy crisis as it is, make sure you have a very healthy bank account.
I am actually planning to replace our gas boiler with an ASHP next year, hopefully taking advantage of the £5K grant that I hear will be available from next April, for the same reason I am buying the ID.3: to reduce the amount of fossil fuel burning (climate crisis). I do not count on it being cheaper to run than a gas boiler straight away (despite the higher efficiency in kilowatt-hours), but using my crystal ball to predict the rest of this decade, it may well happen that gas prices will increase faster than electricity prices as the fraction of cheaper renewable sources in the national grid increases, and an ASHP may actually become cheaper to run than a gas boiler. I understand that the current increase in electricity prices is actually due to wholesale gas prices, as approximately 40% of the UK's electricity is produced by burning gas (past year average, source: https://grid.iamkate.com/ )

By the way Scratch, cost apart, how do you like your ASHP? :-) Is the house warm enough? Not too noisy? I live in Yorkshire and sometimes there are whole weeks of temperatures below zero and a fair amount of snow (I had never had to shovel snow from my driveway until I moved here!), and that is my only concern about the ASHP, whether it will do the job in freezing weather. Running it 24/7 in winter at 55ºC radiator temperature is OK for me, as the house is occupied 24/7. I have actually tested setting the gas boiler to around 55ºC and it is enough to keep the house warm even in the coldest days, so I am hoping it will not be necessary to replace the rads.
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monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

ASHP was not in my considerations when my boiler was goosed last Tuesday due to my guttering being dislodged by high winds and sloshing some rain water down the flue.

£10k for a big noisy lump in the garden, but you can get £5k back in grant, and it costs 5x as much to run as a gas boiler because electricity costs 5x as much per kWh. Far too much money both initially and ongoing.

I ended up getting a Worcester Bosch boiler with a 93% efficiency rating for a fraction of that and it'll cost less than £500 a year to run. Until electricity is cheap 24/7 or gas approaches 2/3 the cost of electricity per unit, heat pumps will remain in the future for me.
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Splitty
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Post by Splitty »

Some glaring errors there Monkey, ASHP has a coefficient of 3-4 x input so costs are not comparable in the way you describe. This table gives the detail about the energy density of the various fuels and the current costs https://nottenergy.com/resources/energy ... omparison/.

ASHP are much quieter than you allude and have to be in order to be installed outside, generally they are much quieter than a boiler. There is also a strong possibility that there will be a move away from subsidising gas prices with electricity revenues in order to encourage the uptake of alternative fuels. And yes, costs are higher, but they will come down and in a few years you won't have a choice anyway.

Our choices are limited to Oil, LPG or ASHP and next year we will switch to ASHP, running costs will be practically the same as Oil and we won't have a monster smelly oil tank in the garden, nor will we be reliant of fluctuating oil prices and noxious discharges from the boiler flue.
Scratch
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Post by Scratch »

shire-dweller wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:32 pm
Scratch wrote: We have an ASHP [Air Source Heat Pump]. If you are thinking of getting one, as this government seems to want everyone to do, DON'T! Or at least, make sure you do your homework and with the energy crisis as it is, make sure you have a very healthy bank account.
I am actually planning to replace our gas boiler with an ASHP next year, hopefully taking advantage of the £5K grant that I hear will be available from next April, for the same reason I am buying the ID.3: to reduce the amount of fossil fuel burning (climate crisis). I do not count on it being cheaper to run than a gas boiler straight away (despite the higher efficiency in kilowatt-hours), but using my crystal ball to predict the rest of this decade, it may well happen that gas prices will increase faster than electricity prices as the fraction of cheaper renewable sources in the national grid increases, and an ASHP may actually become cheaper to run than a gas boiler. I understand that the current increase in electricity prices is actually due to wholesale gas prices, as approximately 40% of the UK's electricity is produced by burning gas (past year average, source: https://grid.iamkate.com/ )

By the way Scratch, cost apart, how do you like your ASHP? :-) Is the house warm enough? Not too noisy? I live in Yorkshire and sometimes there are whole weeks of temperatures below zero and a fair amount of snow (I had never had to shovel snow from my driveway until I moved here!), and that is my only concern about the ASHP, whether it will do the job in freezing weather. Running it 24/7 in winter at 55ºC radiator temperature is OK for me, as the house is occupied 24/7. I have actually tested setting the gas boiler to around 55ºC and it is enough to keep the house warm even in the coldest days, so I am hoping it will not be necessary to replace the rads.
I quite like the idea of the ASHP, plus it's not polluting our neighbourhood. (smug face) The house is warm enough but there is a learning curve on how to set it up, if you are coming from a conventional boiler system. The ideal is that you keep the house at the same temperature 24/7. That was difficult for my wife as she is a fresh air fanatic. Even I like to open a window on occasion but that will upset the equilibrium of the heating system. ASHP systems can take a LONG time to get to your desired comfortable temperature and then you want to keep it there. Open windows don't help. (Covid 19 anyone?).
The rads MUST be replaced if they were designed for a conventional boiler system. They act differently. ASHP rads don't get very hot to the touch. They need to be bigger. Whoever is installing your system should advise on things like rads and, importantly, insulation. We were lucky in that we bought our house, new, 3 years ago, and it was specifically designed around the ASHP. Our builder was a small local company who value their reputation, so they were vigilant when the design was done.
The electricity bills are higher than our previous house with a gas boiler. Lots of people quote ASHP efficiency as 3:1. i.e. 1 unit of electricity gives 3 units of equivalent heat. Whilst true in mild weather, it drops during the colder months, therefore, more electricity is required to keep your set temperature. I just looked at ours and the efficiency for the month so far is 1.8:1.
We are in North Yorkshire.
If you need any other info of my experience, PM me.
So (smug face again) we also don't pollute with our heating AND we don't pollute with our ID3. I deserve an MBE or something, no?
Smitten
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Post by Smitten »

shire-dweller wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:32 pm
Scratch wrote: We have an ASHP [Air Source Heat Pump]. If you are thinking of getting one, as this government seems to want everyone to do, DON'T! Or at least, make sure you do your homework and with the energy crisis as it is, make sure you have a very healthy bank account.
I am actually planning to replace our gas boiler with an ASHP next year, hopefully taking advantage of the £5K grant that I hear will be available from next April, for the same reason I am buying the ID.3: to reduce the amount of fossil fuel burning (climate crisis). I do not count on it being cheaper to run than a gas boiler straight away (despite the higher efficiency in kilowatt-hours), but using my crystal ball to predict the rest of this decade, it may well happen that gas prices will increase faster than electricity prices as the fraction of cheaper renewable sources in the national grid increases, and an ASHP may actually become cheaper to run than a gas boiler. I understand that the current increase in electricity prices is actually due to wholesale gas prices, as approximately 40% of the UK's electricity is produced by burning gas (past year average, source: https://grid.iamkate.com/ )

By the way Scratch, cost apart, how do you like your ASHP? :-) Is the house warm enough? Not too noisy? I live in Yorkshire and sometimes there are whole weeks of temperatures below zero and a fair amount of snow (I had never had to shovel snow from my driveway until I moved here!), and that is my only concern about the ASHP, whether it will do the job in freezing weather. Running it 24/7 in winter at 55ºC radiator temperature is OK for me, as the house is occupied 24/7. I have actually tested setting the gas boiler to around 55ºC and it is enough to keep the house warm even in the coldest days, so I am hoping it will not be necessary to replace the rads.
Ours was replaced in April so this is the first winter. We have underfloor heating to ground floor which is perfect and rads upstairs. A heat loss survey is part of the installation process so make sure you are well insulated. Works best with small changes in temp over long periods so heating the house is gradual. The house is near silent when it is in operation. Small amount of noise, similar to a fridge when it starts but much quieter in use and anyway, who is going to stand outside in the winter checking the noise? My gas boiler made more noise inside the house. This makes a small amount outside which you can't hear above background noise in a city. We have underfloor heating hot water temp set at 40 degrees C on a weather compensated curve. Rads are set at 50 degrees. We didn't have to change radiators. Bedrooms are maintained around 18 degrees C and ground floor around 20.5C. Nice even heat. They work harder on coldest days but are in use in Sweden and Norway and can still generate heat in -20C. We also made the change for environmental reasons and were one of the few getting the Green Homes Grant.
Tour Pro S 77kWh, heatpump, 19" Andoya wheels, Glacier White
Ordered 21.8.21
Order No: 314400**
Build week 24 unconfirmed
Delivery Q4 2022 delayed from Q1 2022
Cancelled order and replaced with in stock Kia EV6
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Post by Scratch »

Smitten wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:49 am
shire-dweller wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:32 pm
Scratch wrote: We have an ASHP [Air Source Heat Pump]. If you are thinking of getting one, as this government seems to want everyone to do, DON'T! Or at least, make sure you do your homework and with the energy crisis as it is, make sure you have a very healthy bank account.
I am actually planning to replace our gas boiler with an ASHP next year, hopefully taking advantage of the £5K grant that I hear will be available from next April, for the same reason I am buying the ID.3: to reduce the amount of fossil fuel burning (climate crisis). I do not count on it being cheaper to run than a gas boiler straight away (despite the higher efficiency in kilowatt-hours), but using my crystal ball to predict the rest of this decade, it may well happen that gas prices will increase faster than electricity prices as the fraction of cheaper renewable sources in the national grid increases, and an ASHP may actually become cheaper to run than a gas boiler. I understand that the current increase in electricity prices is actually due to wholesale gas prices, as approximately 40% of the UK's electricity is produced by burning gas (past year average, source: https://grid.iamkate.com/ )

By the way Scratch, cost apart, how do you like your ASHP? :-) Is the house warm enough? Not too noisy? I live in Yorkshire and sometimes there are whole weeks of temperatures below zero and a fair amount of snow (I had never had to shovel snow from my driveway until I moved here!), and that is my only concern about the ASHP, whether it will do the job in freezing weather. Running it 24/7 in winter at 55ºC radiator temperature is OK for me, as the house is occupied 24/7. I have actually tested setting the gas boiler to around 55ºC and it is enough to keep the house warm even in the coldest days, so I am hoping it will not be necessary to replace the rads.
Ours was replaced in April so this is the first winter. We have underfloor heating to ground floor which is perfect and rads upstairs. A heat loss survey is part of the installation process so make sure you are well insulated. Works best with small changes in temp over long periods so heating the house is gradual. The house is near silent when it is in operation. Small amount of noise, similar to a fridge when it starts but much quieter in use and anyway, who is going to stand outside in the winter checking the noise? My gas boiler made more noise inside the house. This makes a small amount outside which you can't hear above background noise in a city. We have underfloor heating hot water temp set at 40 degrees C on a weather compensated curve. Rads are set at 50 degrees. We didn't have to change radiators. Bedrooms are maintained around 18 degrees C and ground floor around 20.5C. Nice even heat. They work harder on coldest days but are in use in Sweden and Norway and can still generate heat in -20C. We also made the change for environmental reasons and were one of the few getting the Green Homes Grant.
It's interesting you quote Sweden and Norway. I have some experience of those countries, albeit minimal and from what I have seen there, they tend to build quality housing. Can the same be said about some of our major builders in the UK?
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Splitty
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Post by Splitty »

Like others I am moving for environmental as well as practical reasons. Our house was built 6 years ago, it has UFH up and downstairs and masses of insulation as well as being thatched which also helps. We are EPC rated B so yes, modern builders can build houses that are energy efficient, giving them an incentive also helps. But then I have no idea why they put an oil boiler in when the house was clearly designed to take a heat pump. I suspect it was because the builder lived onsite in an outbuilding for a number of years and used the same boiler there (which is why it's at the end of it's useful life)
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AtrixMan
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Post by AtrixMan »

Scratch wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:54 am
Smitten wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:49 am
shire-dweller wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:32 pm

I am actually planning to replace our gas boiler with an ASHP next year, hopefully taking advantage of the £5K grant that I hear will be available from next April, for the same reason I am buying the ID.3: to reduce the amount of fossil fuel burning (climate crisis). I do not count on it being cheaper to run than a gas boiler straight away (despite the higher efficiency in kilowatt-hours), but using my crystal ball to predict the rest of this decade, it may well happen that gas prices will increase faster than electricity prices as the fraction of cheaper renewable sources in the national grid increases, and an ASHP may actually become cheaper to run than a gas boiler. I understand that the current increase in electricity prices is actually due to wholesale gas prices, as approximately 40% of the UK's electricity is produced by burning gas (past year average, source: https://grid.iamkate.com/ )

By the way Scratch, cost apart, how do you like your ASHP? :-) Is the house warm enough? Not too noisy? I live in Yorkshire and sometimes there are whole weeks of temperatures below zero and a fair amount of snow (I had never had to shovel snow from my driveway until I moved here!), and that is my only concern about the ASHP, whether it will do the job in freezing weather. Running it 24/7 in winter at 55ºC radiator temperature is OK for me, as the house is occupied 24/7. I have actually tested setting the gas boiler to around 55ºC and it is enough to keep the house warm even in the coldest days, so I am hoping it will not be necessary to replace the rads.
Ours was replaced in April so this is the first winter. We have underfloor heating to ground floor which is perfect and rads upstairs. A heat loss survey is part of the installation process so make sure you are well insulated. Works best with small changes in temp over long periods so heating the house is gradual. The house is near silent when it is in operation. Small amount of noise, similar to a fridge when it starts but much quieter in use and anyway, who is going to stand outside in the winter checking the noise? My gas boiler made more noise inside the house. This makes a small amount outside which you can't hear above background noise in a city. We have underfloor heating hot water temp set at 40 degrees C on a weather compensated curve. Rads are set at 50 degrees. We didn't have to change radiators. Bedrooms are maintained around 18 degrees C and ground floor around 20.5C. Nice even heat. They work harder on coldest days but are in use in Sweden and Norway and can still generate heat in -20C. We also made the change for environmental reasons and were one of the few getting the Green Homes Grant.
It's interesting you quote Sweden and Norway. I have some experience of those countries, albeit minimal and from what I have seen there, they tend to build quality housing. Can the same be said about some of our major builders in the UK?
I've just started using ASHP in the last 2 weeks (previously heating was LPG). Our property is about 20 years old, all of the windows and doors needed replacing and we have put a foot of insulation all over the loft. We've had teething problems, but when working properly we can still keep the place warm with a 50ºC radiator temperature, this reduces running costs.

The £5,000 grant scheme, available from April, is replacing the £8,000 RHI subsidy available today.
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Post by Scratch »

AtrixMan wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:35 pm
Scratch wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:54 am
Smitten wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:49 am

Ours was replaced in April so this is the first winter. We have underfloor heating to ground floor which is perfect and rads upstairs. A heat loss survey is part of the installation process so make sure you are well insulated. Works best with small changes in temp over long periods so heating the house is gradual. The house is near silent when it is in operation. Small amount of noise, similar to a fridge when it starts but much quieter in use and anyway, who is going to stand outside in the winter checking the noise? My gas boiler made more noise inside the house. This makes a small amount outside which you can't hear above background noise in a city. We have underfloor heating hot water temp set at 40 degrees C on a weather compensated curve. Rads are set at 50 degrees. We didn't have to change radiators. Bedrooms are maintained around 18 degrees C and ground floor around 20.5C. Nice even heat. They work harder on coldest days but are in use in Sweden and Norway and can still generate heat in -20C. We also made the change for environmental reasons and were one of the few getting the Green Homes Grant.
It's interesting you quote Sweden and Norway. I have some experience of those countries, albeit minimal and from what I have seen there, they tend to build quality housing. Can the same be said about some of our major builders in the UK?
I've just started using ASHP in the last 2 weeks (previously heating was LPG). Our property is about 20 years old, all of the windows and doors needed replacing and we have put a foot of insulation all over the loft. We've had teething problems, but when working properly we can still keep the place warm with a 50ºC radiator temperature, this reduces running costs.

The £5,000 grant scheme, available from April, is replacing the £8,000 RHI subsidy available today.
"The £5,000 grant scheme, available from April, is replacing the £8,000 RHI subsidy available today."
If that's the case, then yet another example of this government not taking these climate issue seriously. How long do we reckon the existing £2500 EV grant will last?
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Post by Smitten »

Scratch wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:54 am
Smitten wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:49 am
shire-dweller wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:32 pm

I am actually planning to replace our gas boiler with an ASHP next year, hopefully taking advantage of the £5K grant that I hear will be available from next April, for the same reason I am buying the ID.3: to reduce the amount of fossil fuel burning (climate crisis). I do not count on it being cheaper to run than a gas boiler straight away (despite the higher efficiency in kilowatt-hours), but using my crystal ball to predict the rest of this decade, it may well happen that gas prices will increase faster than electricity prices as the fraction of cheaper renewable sources in the national grid increases, and an ASHP may actually become cheaper to run than a gas boiler. I understand that the current increase in electricity prices is actually due to wholesale gas prices, as approximately 40% of the UK's electricity is produced by burning gas (past year average, source: https://grid.iamkate.com/ )

By the way Scratch, cost apart, how do you like your ASHP? :-) Is the house warm enough? Not too noisy? I live in Yorkshire and sometimes there are whole weeks of temperatures below zero and a fair amount of snow (I had never had to shovel snow from my driveway until I moved here!), and that is my only concern about the ASHP, whether it will do the job in freezing weather. Running it 24/7 in winter at 55ºC radiator temperature is OK for me, as the house is occupied 24/7. I have actually tested setting the gas boiler to around 55ºC and it is enough to keep the house warm even in the coldest days, so I am hoping it will not be necessary to replace the rads.
Ours was replaced in April so this is the first winter. We have underfloor heating to ground floor which is perfect and rads upstairs. A heat loss survey is part of the installation process so make sure you are well insulated. Works best with small changes in temp over long periods so heating the house is gradual. The house is near silent when it is in operation. Small amount of noise, similar to a fridge when it starts but much quieter in use and anyway, who is going to stand outside in the winter checking the noise? My gas boiler made more noise inside the house. This makes a small amount outside which you can't hear above background noise in a city. We have underfloor heating hot water temp set at 40 degrees C on a weather compensated curve. Rads are set at 50 degrees. We didn't have to change radiators. Bedrooms are maintained around 18 degrees C and ground floor around 20.5C. Nice even heat. They work harder on coldest days but are in use in Sweden and Norway and can still generate heat in -20C. We also made the change for environmental reasons and were one of the few getting the Green Homes Grant.
It's interesting you quote Sweden and Norway. I have some experience of those countries, albeit minimal and from what I have seen there, they tend to build quality housing. Can the same be said about some of our major builders in the UK?
Likewise. I have spent a lot of time in both countries. Insulation standards on older buildings is higher than the UK and even 150 year old flats in Stockholm have original secondary single glazing to keep in heat. Installing ground source heat pumps is quite normal as frequently if you are buying a house you buy land and then a house arrives in kit form from a brochure. Indeed my ex mother-in-laws house was bought that way in the early 1980's. That house had full external insulation fitted more than 25 years ago and triple glazing in 2000. Their electricity mix is also much greener than ours:

https://sweden.se/climate/sustainabilit ... -in-sweden

https://energifaktanorge.no/en/norsk-en ... roduksjon/

That being said my sister lives in a new build in Dundee and it is built to extremely high insulation standards close to Passivhaus and she has an air source heat pump - its smaller than mine and she uses about 40% less power than me, so modern buildings are definitely more efficient but you can retrofit older houses if you add plenty of insulation.
Tour Pro S 77kWh, heatpump, 19" Andoya wheels, Glacier White
Ordered 21.8.21
Order No: 314400**
Build week 24 unconfirmed
Delivery Q4 2022 delayed from Q1 2022
Cancelled order and replaced with in stock Kia EV6
monkeyhanger
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Post by monkeyhanger »

Splitty wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:55 am Some glaring errors there Monkey, ASHP has a coefficient of 3-4 x input so costs are not comparable in the way you describe. This table gives the detail about the energy density of the various fuels and the current costs https://nottenergy.com/resources/energy ... omparison/.

ASHP are much quieter than you allude and have to be in order to be installed outside, generally they are much quieter than a boiler. There is also a strong possibility that there will be a move away from subsidising gas prices with electricity revenues in order to encourage the uptake of alternative fuels. And yes, costs are higher, but they will come down and in a few years you won't have a choice anyway.

Our choices are limited to Oil, LPG or ASHP and next year we will switch to ASHP, running costs will be practically the same as Oil and we won't have a monster smelly oil tank in the garden, nor will we be reliant of fluctuating oil prices and noxious discharges from the boiler flue.
My Cousin has a Panasonic ASHP 16kW unit (he said it was the biggest he could get), it's like a double decker, and its definitely not quiet. You can't hear it inside from outside, but it's quite noisy outside when its working hard. Compared to a rickety old boiler i'd say it's about the same noise output. It's more than doubled his heating bills. Electricity needs to get a lot cheaper for these to be desirable to most people without having to sell it hard on its supposed environmental credentials (average 40% of national grid output is still gas derived) . It needs a £240 service every year. Water doesn't get that hot for baths - he completely regrets it. He was sold it on the pretence of saving money (comparison for money saving is based on a fully electric heating system rather than compare with gas central heating.

We got a new boiler after storm Arwen dislodged our guttering and diverted some water through our boiler flue. The old one was 20 years old, same age as the house. The new one is incredibly quiet (Worcester Bosch 27 Ri), I can't hear it at all unless I open the kitchen cupboard it's housed in.

Our future energy usage for green electricity seems to hinge on far more wind farms and a lot more nuclear power, neither of which seem forthcoming (considering a nuclear power station takes at least 20 years to commission, and our current ones are all getting a bit old - Hartlepool is running 7 years beyond its original expectations of lifespan right now.
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Splitty
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Post by Splitty »

It is difficult to argue about individual cases. Installing ASHP in an old property without considering heat losses, heat delivery and overall system design is never going to work. I was simply pointing out the errors in your statement about the costs of heating with ASHP compared to say oil or gas. The costs for energy delivery are broadly the same and in some cases like Oil vs ASHP, ASHP costs less. Gas subsidies will be going away and the legislation is already in place for a switch away from fossil fuels to heat homes. In my experience ASHP are quieter than boilers and do not make any noticeable noise unless you stand in front of them. And yes HW temperatures could be lower, but there are a lot of ASHP manufacturers who can deliver higher HW temperatures. Personally I am not interested in baths, they are a waste of time and money and ASHP are perfectly good for showers. Anyway, the HW cylinder needs to be heated to 65 degrees at least once a week to prevent legionnaires and that is usually done via an immersion booster (on Octopus Go rates). Ideal for those days you do want a bath.

There were several days this year where the UK's energy was derived solely from non fosil fuels.
"By the beginning of November 2021, the UK had 11,018 wind turbines with a total installed capacity of over 24.3 gigawatts: 13.9 gigawatts of onshore capacity and 10.4 gigawatts of offshore capacity"

This was last year.

Screenshot 2021-12-08 at 19.18.34.png

So wind power electricity is almost as much as gas production and will be more in the future.
Smitten
Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:39 pm

Post by Smitten »

monkeyhanger wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:06 pm
Splitty wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:55 am Some glaring errors there Monkey, ASHP has a coefficient of 3-4 x input so costs are not comparable in the way you describe. This table gives the detail about the energy density of the various fuels and the current costs https://nottenergy.com/resources/energy ... omparison/.

ASHP are much quieter than you allude and have to be in order to be installed outside, generally they are much quieter than a boiler. There is also a strong possibility that there will be a move away from subsidising gas prices with electricity revenues in order to encourage the uptake of alternative fuels. And yes, costs are higher, but they will come down and in a few years you won't have a choice anyway.

Our choices are limited to Oil, LPG or ASHP and next year we will switch to ASHP, running costs will be practically the same as Oil and we won't have a monster smelly oil tank in the garden, nor will we be reliant of fluctuating oil prices and noxious discharges from the boiler flue.
My Cousin has a Panasonic ASHP 16kW unit (he said it was the biggest he could get), it's like a double decker, and its definitely not quiet. You can't hear it inside from outside, but it's quite noisy outside when its working hard. Compared to a rickety old boiler i'd say it's about the same noise output. It's more than doubled his heating bills. Electricity needs to get a lot cheaper for these to be desirable to most people without having to sell it hard on its supposed environmental credentials (average 40% of national grid output is still gas derived) . It needs a £240 service every year. Water doesn't get that hot for baths - he completely regrets it. He was sold it on the pretence of saving money (comparison for money saving is based on a fully electric heating system rather than compare with gas central heating.

We got a new boiler after storm Arwen dislodged our guttering and diverted some water through our boiler flue. The old one was 20 years old, same age as the house. The new one is incredibly quiet (Worcester Bosch 27 Ri), I can't hear it at all unless I open the kitchen cupboard it's housed in.

Our future energy usage for green electricity seems to hinge on far more wind farms and a lot more nuclear power, neither of which seem forthcoming (considering a nuclear power station takes at least 20 years to commission, and our current ones are all getting a bit old - Hartlepool is running 7 years beyond its original expectations of lifespan right now.
We have a 11.2kW Mitsubishi Ecodan and it is super quiet and about 1m tall, 1m wide - we have a large extended 4 bed semi from 1930's. We were concerned about noise but needn't have been. It is 42dB outside - a quiet library is 40dB and a fridge is about 50dB. Our energy bills are about 20% more than previously as we were on gas which is fifth of the price of electricity but the seasonal coefficient of performance of our ASHP is 3.87 so it is super efficient. You can set the hot water to any temperature you want but the most efficient setting is 52 degrees C max.

I should point out that 40% of the electricity you put in your EV also comes from burning gas so what about its environmental credentials? It isn't totally clean either. If you use the same argument then why not drive a diesel instead? We wanted to remove another source of emissions and that was our motivation. Your cousin should never have bought an ASHP to save money vs gas and it shouldn't be sold as such. Its cheaper to run than oil but not gas. Indeed our installers said we were the only house they had been to that was removing a gas boiler - they normally removed oil boilers or did new builds.

ASHP's are not a panacea and neither are EVs. They are just part of the puzzle but what is clear is emissions from Britain's housing is a problem on the same scale as emissions from cars and old leaky houses with poor insulation and gas central heating are the cause.

https://www.housing.org.uk/news-and-blo ... than-cars/

A massive hike in gas prices far greater than we have seen so far will be needed to get us off our gas boilers and cheap North Sea Gas and on to something more sustainable.
Tour Pro S 77kWh, heatpump, 19" Andoya wheels, Glacier White
Ordered 21.8.21
Order No: 314400**
Build week 24 unconfirmed
Delivery Q4 2022 delayed from Q1 2022
Cancelled order and replaced with in stock Kia EV6
shire-dweller
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:50 pm

Post by shire-dweller »

Smitten wrote: I should point out that 40% of the electricity you put in your EV also comes from burning gas so what about its environmental credentials?
This point can be addressed by switching to a 100% renewable electricity tariff, right? Or EDF's 100% nuclear. I appreciate that the national grid is interconnected (every household sharing the same electrical cables, so to speak) and the actual percentage of renewable energy generation will vary. Some call this "greenwashing", but I understand that the point of those tariffs is to create demand-side funding through Ofgem's REGO certificates (Renewable Energy Guarantees of Origin). The supplier has to match the electricity billed to the same amount of kilowatt-hours put into the grid by renewable energy generators, which creates the right kind of market demand.

My plan is to have of one of those 100% renewable electricity tariffs with an ID.3 and an ASHP, and get the house disconnected from the gas grid (so I don't have to pay for gas standing charges). I am not planning to fit solar panels on my roof because I understand that I can instead pay for large-scale renewable generation (solar farms, wind farms, tidal...) through the 100% renewable electricity tariff. Is this reasoning flawed? If it is, better to know now before getting the house disconnected from the gas grid. There is also still time to cancel my ID.3 order (and buy some cheap 7-year-old petrol car instead, like I've always done before). :-)
Smitten wrote: A massive hike in gas prices far greater than we have seen so far will be needed to get us off our gas boilers and cheap North Sea Gas and on to something more sustainable.
That, or legislation like the one recently passed to ban the sale of new ICE cars from 2030. There is talk of new gas boilers being similarly banned at some point.
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Smitten
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Post by Smitten »

Yes I have a green tariff too and once I have got rid of the gas hob the gas supply will go too. Unfortunately the reality is that the electrons you will be using to power your ASHP and EV come from the UK grid and a large chunk of that electricity is produced by burning gas and burning wood pellets at Drax at the moment. Coal is also used to help meet peak periods with low wind. The proportion is changing in favour of greener energy sources though and there has been a huge increase in wind energy over the past 10 years but our electricity is not clean yet, no matter how we package that in green tariffs.
Tour Pro S 77kWh, heatpump, 19" Andoya wheels, Glacier White
Ordered 21.8.21
Order No: 314400**
Build week 24 unconfirmed
Delivery Q4 2022 delayed from Q1 2022
Cancelled order and replaced with in stock Kia EV6
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