Electric cars now more expensive per mile than diesel

[Kwr68]

I watched frozen planet 11 on Sunday I do not wish to go back to a reliance fossil fuels I am fortunate I’m retired I can plan how I use my car , there is always going to inconvenience and compromise and it’s a relatively new technology that’s continually evolving.

[shire-dweller]

[...] fast charging is now working out more expensive than taking our diesel car.
[...] The rest of the population [...] don't have access to home charging

For years has been pointed out to the government that they charge 20% VAT on public charger electricity and 5% VAT on home electricity, which is unfair to frequent users of public chargers and creates a disincentive to the wider adoption of EVs. Instead of doing something about this, they are:

• Lifting the ban on fracking
• Issuing new oil and gas licences
• Capping the revenues of wind and solar generators

They pay lip service to net zero targets, but they do the exact opposite of what it takes. At the next election, do not forget.

[monkeyhanger]

It’s not that much difference when you go for a coffee, sandwich and a pee then fill up with diesel and drive off vs plug in and go for a coffee, sandwich and a pee, then unplug and drive off.
Btw 12.5p per kWh is about £17 for an equivalent ‘full tank’. I am paying 7.5p until Oct 2023.
Things aren’t as peachy as they were but for many EV drivers there are still significant day to day savings to somewhat offset the big outlay.

That old chestnut - justification of the time it takes to charge by talking about the obligatory £7 sandwich and coffee every 2 hours on the motorway to kill time charging, assuming you manage to get on a fast charger straight away and it works properly/takes payment. When driving ICE cars, I'd do 4 hours/280 miles without stopping, hardly ever frequenting motorway services.

When you're drinking coffee every 2 hours, you'll need to pee every 2 hours.

Driving an EV long distances is a PITA because of the charging times and costs. If you have no access to a home charger it's just crap all the time - high running costs and high inconvenience. Hardly any of us early adopters don't have a home charger. The only people I know on the forums that bought an EV without home charging capability did so with the master plan of commandeering their local Tesco Podpoint for hours a day. 12p per kWh on the newest Go tariff.is still cheap vs ICE, but nowhere near as cheap as many expected when they decided to go EV.

If these electricity prices don't sort themselves soon, voluntary uptake of EVs beyond company car use is going to take a huge dive.

[sidehaas]

It’s not that much difference when you go for a coffee, sandwich and a pee then fill up with diesel and drive off vs plug in and go for a coffee, sandwich and a pee, then unplug and drive off.
Btw 12.5p per kWh is about £17 for an equivalent ‘full tank’. I am paying 7.5p until Oct 2023.
Things aren’t as peachy as they were but for many EV drivers there are still significant day to day savings to somewhat offset the big outlay.

That old chestnut - justification of the time it takes to charge by talking about the obligatory £7 sandwich and coffee every 2 hours on the motorway to kill time charging, assuming you manage to get on a fast charger straight away and it works properly/takes payment. When driving ICE cars, I'd do 4 hours/280 miles without stopping, hardly ever frequenting motorway services.

I think you are unusual. I haven't done 4 hours without a stop since my early 20s. There is just no point. I stop every couple of hours regardless of journey and car I'm in. The ID3 will go for longer than that in most conditions. You are right about the coffee/pee of course.
Most companies will tell their staff to stop and take a break every two hours when traveling on business. Ones that don't, should.
I've seen someone on the forums complaining that EVs were useless because it was really important to them to drive for 4+ hours non stop at 80mph. But the number of people who actually do that is minimal.
Occasionally charging takes longer than I would otherwise have stopped for when alone, but not by much, and when I'm traveling with family never at all - kids take much longer than the car.
I never have a problem getting straight on a working charger when I need it. It has literally never happened to me except when I tried a supercharger once. You just need to stop at the right places. (Edit - I know there are still long journeys where it's impossible to find a charging stop from a reliable brand with more than a couple of chargers, and then you can be unlucky - but actually those journeys are getting fewer & farther between in England).

[Bromsgroveuser]

Just noticed diesel has jumped to £1.91 a litre at a main road garage by me , it's on the way up again

[Andy1966]

The government will have to step in and sort out this obvious problem with pricing on public chargers.
Although Diesel is a cheaper alternative at the moment there is also the introduction of car zones that charge to be taken into consideration if you have to drive in city centres.
My local council in Bristol are introducing charges for diesel cars £9 a day and cars that were produced before 2015.
The push for EV and Hybrid will only gather more pace but its obviously early days still for this.

[Scratch]

The government will have to step in and sort out this obvious problem with pricing on public chargers.
Although Diesel is a cheaper alternative at the moment there is also the introduction of car zones that charge to be taken into consideration if you have to drive in city centres.
My local council in Bristol are introducing charges for diesel cars £9 a day and cars that were produced before 2015.
The push for EV and Hybrid will only gather more pace but its obviously early days still for this.

"The government will have to step in and sort out this obvious problem with pricing on public chargers."

Do you really believe they will? This same government are issuing licenses for new oil and gas exploration in the North Sea. And then there is fracking. Not very anti-fossil fuel is it? Yes, we have the immediate issue of gas supply, due to Ukraine war, but these new fossil fuel licenses won't see anywhere near immediate results.

[OB1CCFC]

It’s not that much difference when you go for a coffee, sandwich and a pee then fill up with diesel and drive off vs plug in and go for a coffee, sandwich and a pee, then unplug and drive off.
Btw 12.5p per kWh is about £17 for an equivalent ‘full tank’. I am paying 7.5p until Oct 2023.
Things aren’t as peachy as they were but for many EV drivers there are still significant day to day savings to somewhat offset the big outlay.

That old chestnut - justification of the time it takes to charge by talking about the obligatory £7 sandwich and coffee every 2 hours on the motorway to kill time charging, assuming you manage to get on a fast charger straight away and it works properly/takes payment. When driving ICE cars, I'd do 4 hours/280 miles without stopping, hardly ever frequenting motorway services.

When you're drinking coffee every 2 hours, you'll need to pee every 2 hours.

Driving an EV long distances is a PITA because of the charging times and costs. If you have no access to a home charger it's just crap all the time - high running costs and high inconvenience. Hardly any of us early adopters don't have a home charger. The only people I know on the forums that bought an EV without home charging capability did so with the master plan of commandeering their local Tesco Podpoint for hours a day. 12p per kWh on the newest Go tariff.is still cheap vs ICE, but nowhere near as cheap as many expected when they decided to go EV.

If these electricity prices don't sort themselves soon, voluntary uptake of EVs beyond company car use is going to take a huge dive.

Ive never come across any driver who drives 4 hours non stop and never goes to motorway services! That’s just a weird absurdist argument which makes me wonder why on earth you ever considered an EV.
Stopping every 2 or 2 1/2 hrs for a break for non business drivers is probably pretty normal and probably recommended for safety also.
Poor infrastructure is an important side issue that needs addressing. I’ve probably waited twice for 10 minutes on 20 trips. It obviously doesn’t help.
My point was that many people have potential access to home chargers and they don’t go on many long touring journeys. For them it isn’t all doom and gloom. Significant day to day savings can be made by owning an EV.

[monkeyhanger]

It’s not that much difference when you go for a coffee, sandwich and a pee then fill up with diesel and drive off vs plug in and go for a coffee, sandwich and a pee, then unplug and drive off.
Btw 12.5p per kWh is about £17 for an equivalent ‘full tank’. I am paying 7.5p until Oct 2023.
Things aren’t as peachy as they were but for many EV drivers there are still significant day to day savings to somewhat offset the big outlay.

That old chestnut - justification of the time it takes to charge by talking about the obligatory £7 sandwich and coffee every 2 hours on the motorway to kill time charging, assuming you manage to get on a fast charger straight away and it works properly/takes payment. When driving ICE cars, I'd do 4 hours/280 miles without stopping, hardly ever frequenting motorway services.

When you're drinking coffee every 2 hours, you'll need to pee every 2 hours.

Driving an EV long distances is a PITA because of the charging times and costs. If you have no access to a home charger it's just crap all the time - high running costs and high inconvenience. Hardly any of us early adopters don't have a home charger. The only people I know on the forums that bought an EV without home charging capability did so with the master plan of commandeering their local Tesco Podpoint for hours a day. 12p per kWh on the newest Go tariff.is still cheap vs ICE, but nowhere near as cheap as many expected when they decided to go EV.

If these electricity prices don't sort themselves soon, voluntary uptake of EVs beyond company car use is going to take a huge dive.

Ive never come across any driver who drives 4 hours non stop and never goes to motorway services! That’s just a weird absurdist argument which makes me wonder why on earth you ever considered an EV.
Stopping every 2 or 2 1/2 hrs for a break for non business drivers is probably pretty normal and probably recommended for safety also.
Poor infrastructure is an important side issue that needs addressing. I’ve probably waited twice for 10 minutes on 20 trips. It obviously doesn’t help.
My point was that many people have potential access to home chargers and they don’t go on many long touring journeys. For them it isn’t all doom and gloom. Significant day to day savings can be made by owning an EV.

4 hours without stopping is very doable when you don't fill up on strong diuretics at every opportunity, and any stops I used to make when travelling on my own were literally no more than 10 mins. I find my EV stops taking at least 50 mins if I get straight on to a charger and it's not monumentally slow (I have been on a "125kW" Gridserve charger pulling 28kW at Wetherby services before.

There's just so much propaganda whereby the EV inconveniences are dressed up as "blessings in disguise".

Luckily for me,I do a long journey just less frequently than once a month - a 480 mile round trip to Milton Keynes from Newcastle, but it's a pain when I do. Takes about 9 hours all in, leaving the house on 100% charge. That'd be 7 hours in an ICE.

I suppose I'm one of the lucky ones - home charger, Octopus Go, but there's no denying that if you have to charge away from home a lot, EV driving is inconvenient. If thecost of EV driving is on a Par wich ICE driving, given the spiralling costs of electricity, EV take up is going to slow right down. That was my main point - and it may hit the cost of EV ownership even more if the residuals take a beating as a result. Right now EVs are expensive vs the equivalent ICE car, but we justify that with the expectation of very good residuals.

[G43FAN]

It’s not that much difference when you go for a coffee, sandwich and a pee then fill up with diesel and drive off vs plug in and go for a coffee, sandwich and a pee, then unplug and drive off.
Btw 12.5p per kWh is about £17 for an equivalent ‘full tank’. I am paying 7.5p until Oct 2023.
Things aren’t as peachy as they were but for many EV drivers there are still significant day to day savings to somewhat offset the big outlay.

That old chestnut - justification of the time it takes to charge by talking about the obligatory £7 sandwich and coffee every 2 hours on the motorway to kill time charging, assuming you manage to get on a fast charger straight away and it works properly/takes payment. When driving ICE cars, I'd do 4 hours/280 miles without stopping, hardly ever frequenting motorway services.

When you're drinking coffee every 2 hours, you'll need to pee every 2 hours.

Driving an EV long distances is a PITA because of the charging times and costs. If you have no access to a home charger it's just crap all the time - high running costs and high inconvenience. Hardly any of us early adopters don't have a home charger. The only people I know on the forums that bought an EV without home charging capability did so with the master plan of commandeering their local Tesco Podpoint for hours a day. 12p per kWh on the newest Go tariff.is still cheap vs ICE, but nowhere near as cheap as many expected when they decided to go EV.

If these electricity prices don't sort themselves soon, voluntary uptake of EVs beyond company car use is going to take a huge dive.

Ive never come across any driver who drives 4 hours non stop and never goes to motorway services! That’s just a weird absurdist argument which makes me wonder why on earth you ever considered an EV.
Stopping every 2 or 2 1/2 hrs for a break for non business drivers is probably pretty normal and probably recommended for safety also.
Poor infrastructure is an important side issue that needs addressing. I’ve probably waited twice for 10 minutes on 20 trips. It obviously doesn’t help.
My point was that many people have potential access to home chargers and they don’t go on many long touring journeys. For them it isn’t all doom and gloom. Significant day to day savings can be made by owning an EV.

Not probably.. Section 91 of the Highway code recommends 15mins every 2 hours. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway ... -89-to-102

I would be inclined to agree that driving 4 hours non stop is something a minority of drivers do, but not that small a minority. Although my recent conversation with a friend over the driving non-stop in his diesel did prompt his wife to roll her eyes and say 'and we all suffer together'.

[monkeyhanger]

Cars are so comfy these days, its easy to drive long distances and not have chronic back pain at the end of a 4 hour stint behind the wheel.

Just saying - asking someone to pay20-30% premium over an equivalent ICE with diminishing pump savings is going to be a hard sell to anyone doing most of their charges away from home - isn't that thepoint of this thread?

As much as I like my Born E-Boost, I'd swap it for an S3/Golf R in a heartbeat if I was paying 60p+ per kWh for most/all of my miles.

[sidehaas]

Cars are so comfy these days, its easy to drive long distances and not have chronic back pain at the end of a 4 hour stint behind the wheel.

Just saying - asking someone to pay20-30% premium over an equivalent ICE with diminishing pump savings is going to be a hard sell to anyone doing most of their charges away from home - isn't that thepoint of this thread?

As much as I like my Born E-Boost, I'd swap it for an S3/Golf R in a heartbeat if I was paying 60p+ per kWh for most/all of my miles.

I still think running costs alone for an EV will be lower than ICE for almost every use case - even for people who use 100% public charging, as the car will be more efficient for shorter journeys. However I completely agree buying an EV for purely financial reasons makes no sense.
Equally, buying any new car for financial reasons makes no sense. Never has. It's more financially savvy to buy a car 2-3 years old and invest what is left over.

[monkeyhanger]

Cars are so comfy these days, its easy to drive long distances and not have chronic back pain at the end of a 4 hour stint behind the wheel.

Just saying - asking someone to pay20-30% premium over an equivalent ICE with diminishing pump savings is going to be a hard sell to anyone doing most of their charges away from home - isn't that thepoint of this thread?

As much as I like my Born E-Boost, I'd swap it for an S3/Golf R in a heartbeat if I was paying 60p+ per kWh for most/all of my miles.

I still think running costs alone for an EV will be lower than ICE for almost every use case - even for people who use 100% public charging, as the car will be more efficient for shorter journeys. However I completely agree buying an EV for purely financial reasons makes no sense.
Equally, buying any new car for financial reasons makes no sense. Never has. It's more financially savvy to buy a car 2-3 years old and invest what is left over.

For people using 100% public charging though, any pump savings will be marginal - marginal savings and higher purchase price (more thanwiping out those marginal savings) vs great inconvenience of spending nearly an hour at the rapids or 5 mins at the pump half as often, will it add up for soneone with no home charging.

Some ICE performance cars have great efficiencies now - my 2018 Polo GTI+ would sit at 80mph on a motorway run and give me 47mpg, or sit at 70mph and give me 53mpg (under 15p per mile), and still give me 40mpg around the doors with a moderately heavy right foot. Weighing up an EU6 compliant petrol with GPF. or diesel with adblue and DPF vs an EV running on electricity which is half generated with natural gas, the environmental difference isn't that big.

Buying the right car new used to make sense when you could access decent discounts and incentives - I ran my 2015 Golf R , bought new, for 46 months, with a net depreciation loss of £230pm for the time I had it. Buying a car out of warranty comes with risk that plenty of people avoid by buying new. Some cars hold their value so well (outside these extraordinary times of curtailed supply), its sometimes not worth buying a nearly new example over a brand new example. Getting pre EU5 compliant ICEs off the road would have a pretty big impact on the environment, recent ICE cars are magnitudes more clean in terms of NOx and particulates, and a fair bit less CO2 with tech like running the Budack cycle in low load situations, cylinder deactivation and having valve lift technology to allow larger engines behave like smaller ones.

The current crop of EVs are no way the environmental saviours they're portrayed to be by many of us buying an EV. For those running one as a company car, it's a huge BiK taxation dodge, and those of us charging at home on Octopus Go, its a big pump saver, but that inconvenience of public charging (that will be requiredby many without off street parking) and higher purchase price can't be blindly ignored.

[monkeyhanger]

The other perspective. Quite common for many people.
I live near Skipton West Yorkshire and my daughter in St Albans. 198 miles. Charge 100% at home, 7.5p per kWh, Do a comfort break in Milton Keynes Ionity and top up a bit to be safe (£10). Granny charge at my daughters. Similar stop off for the return at Markham vale.
EV’s are so cheap compared to diesels!

Also do a few holidays to the Lakes, Wales, North east that aren’t more than 200 miles return.
99% of my driving is around home.

In the end if you’re not a business user or a heavy tourer, EVs are still a great cheap choice…

Yes, paying nothing for siphoning from your daughters electricity bill to get home is cheap, you can't beat free electricity. Not really a fair comparison though.

Isn't it odd how Russia's invasion of Ukraine has totally FUBARed the main motivation for private EV ownership. None of us saw that coming.

[sidehaas]

Cars are so comfy these days, its easy to drive long distances and not have chronic back pain at the end of a 4 hour stint behind the wheel.

Just saying - asking someone to pay20-30% premium over an equivalent ICE with diminishing pump savings is going to be a hard sell to anyone doing most of their charges away from home - isn't that thepoint of this thread?

As much as I like my Born E-Boost, I'd swap it for an S3/Golf R in a heartbeat if I was paying 60p+ per kWh for most/all of my miles.

I still think running costs alone for an EV will be lower than ICE for almost every use case - even for people who use 100% public charging, as the car will be more efficient for shorter journeys. However I completely agree buying an EV for purely financial reasons makes no sense.
Equally, buying any new car for financial reasons makes no sense. Never has. It's more financially savvy to buy a car 2-3 years old and invest what is left over.

For people using 100% public charging though, any pump savings will be marginal - marginal savings and higher purchase price (more thanwiping out those marginal savings) vs great inconvenience of spending nearly an hour at the rapids or 5 mins at the pump half as often, will it add up for soneone with no home charging.

Some ICE performance cars have great efficiencies now - my 2018 Polo GTI+ would sit at 80mph on a motorway run and give me 47mpg, or sit at 70mph and give me 53mpg (under 15p per mile), and still give me 40mpg around the doors with a moderately heavy right foot. Weighing up an EU6 compliant petrol with GPF. or diesel with adblue and DPF vs an EV running on electricity which is half generated with natural gas, the environmental difference isn't that big.

Buying the right car new used to make sense when you could access decent discounts and incentives - I ran my 2015 Golf R , bought new, for 46 months, with a net depreciation loss of £230pm for the time I had it. Buying a car out of warranty comes with risk that plenty of people avoid by buying new. Some cars hold their value so well (outside these extraordinary times of curtailed supply), its sometimes not worth buying a nearly new example over a brand new example. Getting pre EU5 compliant ICEs off the road would have a pretty big impact on the environment, recent ICE cars are magnitudes more clean in terms of NOx and particulates, and a fair bit less CO2 with tech like running the Budack cycle in low load situations, cylinder deactivation and having valve lift technology to allow larger engines behave like smaller ones.

The current crop of EVs are no way the environmental saviours they're portrayed to be by many of us buying an EV. For those running one as a company car, it's a huge BiK taxation dodge, and those of us charging at home on Octopus Go, its a big pump saver, but that inconvenience of public charging (that will be required by many without off street parking) and higher purchase price can't be blindly ignored.

Comparing total CO2 output now is one way of looking at it, but another is to say that we need to get to a completely CO2-free grid and cars that can run off it, which means 100% EV, and we can't get there overnight. So I do think running an EV is making an important contribution. Charging overnight often helps use more renewable generated electricity too.

You did well with your Golf R. My Octavia is also (early) 2015 - I bought it at 3.5 years old for £13k, after another 4.5 years it's now worth £8k according to Motorway. I had to spend £400 on a new cambelt (scheduled replacement at 80k) and a small amount on MOTs but otherwise it has cost me no more than a new car would. So that's about £100pm. Unusual times - but previous cars I bought for £12-13k at 2-3 years old (Mazda 3 MPS and BMW 120d) both got part ex'd for about £6k after running them for 3 years - so they cost me around £200pm. The beemer did need a suspension coil replacing for a couple of hundred quid I think (that's the only non scheduled maintenance we've ever had to make over 8 used cars, although we've never kept one much past 60k miles before the Octavia). This for me is the main reason why running an EV currently makes no financial sense. If I can buy a 3yo ID4 with average mileage for £20k in 2024 then things will be starting to move in the right direction. But I'm not that hopeful.

[Dinsdale]

I have a Leaf and an Auris hybrid at the moment, the leaf does 3.8 miles per kw and the toyota does 59 mpg.
Using a very realistic £1.60 per litre, the cut off point is 47p per kwh. Anything more expensive and petrol is cheaper, I still have the 7.5p night rate from octopus and have solar so its viable for me, for those without home charging and no driveway then EVs really are not financially viable, the self charging hybrids are a better option.

[phixion]

Maybe your title should have included the "on public fast chargers"

In any case, who enjoys driving a dirty diesel? They are noisy, slow, dirty...

Most of my charging is done from home, which is still cheaper than diesel and petrol as it stands, not to mention how much of a joy it is to drive an EV.

I never bought an EV for the savings, they just came with it.

[TimF]

If ICE vehicles really go get phased out and replaced by EVs, there will need to be some sort of road pricing or charging surchage to fill the huge hole in government income produced by the loss of road fuel duty (the OBR estimates this is worth £26.2 billion in 2022/3). Perhaps a duty on tyres?

[monkeyhanger]

Diesels slow and dirty? Not if you pick the right one. Do you think reasonably priced EVs are amazingly quick? My Born E-boost 231ps is noticeably (but not hugely) quicker than my old 204ps ID3, but still pales in comparison to my old manual Golf R which was reasonably economical given its output - the newer 7 speed DSG boxes are even more economical.

[monkeyhanger]

If ICE vehicles really go get phased out and replaced by EVs, there will need to be some sort of road pricing or charging surchage to fill the huge hole in government income produced by the loss of road fuel duty (the OBR estimates this is worth £26.2 billion in 2022/3). Perhaps a duty on tyres?

There will be something happening after 2025 - BiKs will increase for company car drivers, EVs registered after then won't be exempt from VED and all that lost fuel duty will be paid for one way or another. Taxing tyres probably isn't the way to go - you could be hammered in tax just for being unlucky with punctures. Taxing tyres would also encourage drivers to continue driving on dangerous tyres (excessive wear, sidewall bulges etc.).

Something will happen to even the playing field too - I suspect the likes of Octopus Go tariffs will disappear at some point otherwise those with the xaoabilith of charging at home will pay a lot less than those living in a flat, Victorian terrace etc. 2 tier costs of driving with the most affluent paying the least just won't fly once everyone is in an EV.

If EVs were paying their fair share of taxes, they'd be much more expensive than ICE cars to run. Company car drivers, especially those driving long distances for their work would be loathed to pick an EV over ICE if there were no BiK advantages. Buying an EV isn't the be-all and end-all in being green.