Long v Short Journeys and Battery Heating

[Benjiturp]

Hi Forum,

I've just become the owner of a 2022 ID.3 Max (22,500 miles) and absolutely love it. Having given it a full charge to 100% on Wednesday, I've now ran it down to 10% (Sunday) covering a total of 145 miles with 20 miles remaining. Efficiency on the long term is 3.4 miles/kWh. There have been a number of short journeys with two trips of 40 miles each.

I expect the car to be getting around 170/180 miles when weather is cold and my calculation suggests battery degradation of 18%. However, I've read short journeys cause more battery consumption v miles traveled due to the car heating the battery early into each journey when cold.

Does the car have a battery heater?

Should I try to calculate degradation from a single long journey rather than several short journeys?

It's going on charge tonight, I assume seeing how much energy is put back in the battery can also help determine the amount of degradation.

Thoughts and experiences all welcome

[Dermottdog]

18% seem very, very high. Check out this guy. He has done more than most to explain battery degradation.

[Mark55]

Hi,
Yes the main battery does indeed have a heater. But effectively you have no direct control over it.
Let's say it's -5c and the car has been out side all night. You start your journey, the battery will warm up to 0c. During this heating time overall electric consumption will be higher than once the battery is at 0c.
Now let's say you pull in at a fast charger. The battery will now heat up to around 25c.
You can monitor battery temp and lots of other stuff by using an obd dongle and car scanner app.

[Benjiturp]

18% seem very, very high. Check out this guy. He has done more than most to explain battery degradation.

Yeah my thoughts too, which makes me think it cannot be correct. I did notice today that I lost a few % at the very beginning of my journey very quickly then the % loss slowed and became gradual, so I suspect battery heating is the culprit but it's good to get other views and experiences.

Thanks for the vid, I'll check this out

[Midgex]

Charging overnight and battery heating and temperature.
If the car is told to be ready at 0900 and charges off the domestic charger at say 7kW, will the battery preheat off the charger, if the temperature is -5C?

[Midgex]

...Having given it a full charge to 100% on Wednesday, I've now ran it down to 10% (Sunday) covering a total of 145 miles with 20 miles remaining. ....
Thoughts and experiences all welcome

I mostly keep between 80% and 20% as recommended, but have become relaxed about charging to 90+ before departure on a long journey, and as near 100% as it will go at a charge over brunch where the location* and distance to travel etc coincide to make that sensible. I find it uncomfortable when the car starts begging after 20%
With time I suspect we may find that degradation from deep cycles is less than initially worried about, but until then I'm a little cautious.

It is also convenient when home to plug it in, and allow it to charge at 1.4kW whenever there is a 700W surplus from the solar panels.



* Dorchester, as it happens, the Buttermarket at the top of town.

[Benjiturp]

...Having given it a full charge to 100% on Wednesday, I've now ran it down to 10% (Sunday) covering a total of 145 miles with 20 miles remaining. ....
Thoughts and experiences all welcome

I mostly keep between 80% and 20% as recommended, but have become relaxed about charging to 90+ before departure on a long journey, and as near 100% as it will go at a charge over brunch where the location* and distance to travel etc coincide to make that sensible. I find it uncomfortable when the car starts begging after 20%
With time I suspect we may find that degradation from deep cycles is less than initially worried about, but until then I'm a little cautious.

It is also convenient when home to plug it in, and allow it to charge at 1.4kW whenever there is a 700W surplus from the solar panels.



* Dorchester, as it happens, the Buttermarket at the top of town.

Yes I'll be keeping to the 20:80 rule going forward. As I've just bought the car and have 15 days to return it I just want to make sure the battery is good for degradation considering the IDs seem to lose a bit more than other manufacturers (reported at least).

What's your experience with short frequent journeys. Do you find range is lost faster in those situations?

[Benjiturp]

Charging overnight and battery heating and temperature.
If the car is told to be ready at 0900 and charges off the domestic charger at say 7kW, will the battery preheat off the charger, if the temperature is -5C?

That's a good question. I guess that would be dependent on 2 things; a) when the battery is asked to preheat (I'm guessing when drive is activated?), and b) if the charger is set up to charge at any time rather than waiting for a low rate tariff to kick in.

[sidehaas]

If you want to measure the full capacity of the battery directly using indicated SoC, you need to do a full 100%-0% run (as close as you can get) without preheating the car and without using any climate while stationary if you stop mid route.
You can't extrapolate accurately from shorter journey(s). I have found the SoC scale is not entirely linear. One 10% does not always equal the next 10%. In particular I found it took 50% more energy from my charger to get from 90-100% as from 80-90%, on the occasion I measured it.
Also note that in a new "58kwh usable" ID3, the actual usable from 100-0% is about 55kwh or something, some is below 0.
Battery heating only happens in the ID3 when temperatures are sub zero and is accounted for in the displayed consumption anyway, its not a hidden loss. So it's not the issue here. But the battery is less efficient when cold.
Do you know if your car has the 3.2 update and battery check?
I have found charging losses at 7kw to be in the region of 8-10% by the way.

[Benjiturp]

If you want to measure the full capacity of the battery directly using indicated SoC, you need to do a full 100%-0% run (as close as you can get) without preheating the car and without using any climate while stationary if you stop mid route.
You can't extrapolate accurately from shorter journey(s). I have found the SoC scale is not entirely linear. One 10% does not always equal the next 10%. In particular I found it took 50% more energy from my charger to get from 90-100% as from 80-90%, on the occasion I measured it.
Also note that in a new "58kwh usable" ID3, the actual usable from 100-0% is about 55kwh or something, some is below 0.
Battery heating only happens in the ID3 when temperatures are sub zero and is accounted for in the displayed consumption anyway, its not a hidden loss. So it's not the issue here. But the battery is less efficient when cold.
Do you know if your car has the 3.2 update and battery check?
I have found charging losses at 7kw to be in the region of 8-10% by the way.

Interesting you say battery heating comes on at sub-zero. Today temperatures outside were about 4°C and did see some quick loss of charge at the very start of the journey before easing (about 2 miles for each % but as you say it's not linear), so I wonder what that might be.

I think it currently has 2.4 (0912) and is booked in for an the 3.2 upgrade at my local garage. I'd ask them to do a state of health check as well, but the appointment is after my 15 day return window, so I need get a good idea of degradation asap.

Quite high charging losses too, it's a shame the car can't state how much energy has been received, only the charger stating the output.

I think the best idea is to take it on a long single run tomorrow without heating etc, and do the calculation. That at least will take out any variation from these short journeys.

[Dermottdog]

Hi Forum,

I've just become the owner of a 2022 ID.3 Max (22,500 miles) and absolutely love it. Having given it a full charge to 100% on Wednesday, I've now ran it down to 10% (Sunday) covering a total of 145 miles with 20 miles remaining. Efficiency on the long term is 3.4 miles/kWh. There have been a number of short journeys with two trips of 40 miles each.

I expect the car to be getting around 170/180 miles when weather is cold and my calculation suggests battery degradation of 18%. However, I've read short journeys cause more battery consumption v miles traveled due to the car heating the battery early into each journey when cold.

Does the car have a battery heater?

Should I try to calculate degradation from a single long journey rather than several short journeys?

It's going on charge tonight, I assume seeing how much energy is put back in the battery can also help determine the amount of degradation.

Thoughts and experiences all welcome

Hi again

This video is very helpful too.

[Midgex]

What's your experience with short frequent journeys. Do you find range is lost faster in those situations?

I've not noticed it. I don't do them at that intensity. A confounding factor might also be that I'm less cautious about heat and economy if I'm going a short distance than if I'm heading for the wilds.

[Midgex]

Charging overnight and battery heating and temperature.
If the car is told to be ready at 0900 and charges off the domestic charger at say 7kW, will the battery preheat off the charger, if the temperature is -5C?

That's a good question. I guess that would be dependent on 2 things; a) when the battery is asked to preheat (I'm guessing when drive is activated?), and b) if the charger is set up to charge at any time rather than waiting for a low rate tariff to kick in.

Well, I intend it to charge starting at a time and using (and varying) a rate that finishes the charge and starts the air-con/cabin heater to to have the inside temp correct at 0855. One could propose quite a complicated algorithm around whether it is to charge itself above 80% (do the rest at the last moment) and whether it is at a very low state of charge (top it up to 20% immediately, 40% soon, and whether it has a cheap period, but I suspect that would be making a computer do something difficult which people find fairly easy.


If the car knows when it is required, I'd hope it does the heating before moving rather than after. I don't know how much heating occurs in the battery when charged at up to 7.7 kW but I assume it will come above ambient temperature from that.

Complicated.

[sidehaas]

If you want to measure the full capacity of the battery directly using indicated SoC, you need to do a full 100%-0% run (as close as you can get) without preheating the car and without using any climate while stationary if you stop mid route.
You can't extrapolate accurately from shorter journey(s). I have found the SoC scale is not entirely linear. One 10% does not always equal the next 10%. In particular I found it took 50% more energy from my charger to get from 90-100% as from 80-90%, on the occasion I measured it.
Also note that in a new "58kwh usable" ID3, the actual usable from 100-0% is about 55kwh or something, some is below 0.
Battery heating only happens in the ID3 when temperatures are sub zero and is accounted for in the displayed consumption anyway, its not a hidden loss. So it's not the issue here. But the battery is less efficient when cold.
Do you know if your car has the 3.2 update and battery check?
I have found charging losses at 7kw to be in the region of 8-10% by the way.

Interesting you say battery heating comes on at sub-zero. Today temperatures outside were about 4°C and did see some quick loss of charge at the very start of the journey before easing (about 2 miles for each % but as you say it's not linear), so I wonder what that might be.

I think it currently has 2.4 (0912) and is booked in for an the 3.2 upgrade at my local garage. I'd ask them to do a state of health check as well, but the appointment is after my 15 day return window, so I need get a good idea of degradation asap.

Quite high charging losses too, it's a shame the car can't state how much energy has been received, only the charger stating the output.

I think the best idea is to take it on a long single run tomorrow without heating etc, and do the calculation. That at least will take out any variation from these short journeys.

You can get quite a bit of information from the carscanner app using a £30 obd scanner. I have found that the total energy content in the traction battery when you have charged to 100% is a reasonable estimate. Weirdly though it seems to vary through the year. Perhaps climate related but slowly with a big lag. I've only been monitoring for 4 months so far so not certain about this.
You can also see individual cell voltages. If you have any that are noticeably low (ie consistently lower than those around them), these are potential candidates for being picked up by the battery health check.
Ref your comment about battery going down earlier in a journey, that's usually just due to cabin heating. When it's just below zero, with modern ID software (2.4+) the cabin heating uses a lot more than the battery heater even when it's on.

[sidehaas]

Charging overnight and battery heating and temperature.
If the car is told to be ready at 0900 and charges off the domestic charger at say 7kW, will the battery preheat off the charger, if the temperature is -5C?

This is the settings for when the battery heater activates (from ID driver's club Facebook), which is partially linked to whether it's plugged in:

Translation bits:
„Fahrbereitschaft“ means your car is ready to go, you turned it on (and in gear ie D, B or R). „off grid mit Abfahrtzeit“ means your car is not connected to a charger but with a programmed departure time for preheating. And last one means your car is connected to an ac-charger (wallbox or whatever), charging is done, but with a programmed departure time for preheating.

So to answer your question, yes but only if a departure time is set and the temperatures are in the right range. On 3.0 or later.

Ps the T range means the battery heating will activate if any battery temperature (of 15 measured) is below the lower T, and none are above the higher T. As soon as the lowest T becomes higher than the lower end of the range in the table, it stops (I have observed this directly by OBD).

[Midgex]

...last one means your car is connected to an ac-charger (wallbox or whatever), charging is done, but with a programmed departure time for preheating.

So to answer your question, yes but only if a departure time is set and the temperatures are in the right range. On 3.0 or later.
...

So logical. Thank you for that. Do we get SW 4 someday or is that in other models, I wonder.

[sidehaas]

...last one means your car is connected to an ac-charger (wallbox or whatever), charging is done, but with a programmed departure time for preheating.

So to answer your question, yes but only if a departure time is set and the temperatures are in the right range. On 3.0 or later.
...

So logical. Thank you for that. Do we get SW 4 someday or is that in other models, I wonder.

I don't think anyone knows for sure but the general presumption now seems to be that cars built with 3.x or earlier won't get 4+ because it operates on different hardware. However VW have said OTA updates are continuing and they are developing an OTA to 3.7 at the moment. I suppose theoretically they could keep rolling out updates that might give us most of the features of cars on software 4+ eventually.

[Scratch]

...last one means your car is connected to an ac-charger (wallbox or whatever), charging is done, but with a programmed departure time for preheating.

So to answer your question, yes but only if a departure time is set and the temperatures are in the right range. On 3.0 or later.
...

So logical. Thank you for that. Do we get SW 4 someday or is that in other models, I wonder.

I don't think anyone knows for sure but the general presumption now seems to be that cars built with 3.x or earlier won't get 4+ because it operates on different hardware. However VW have said OTA updates are continuing and they are developing an OTA to 3.7 at the moment. I suppose theoretically they could keep rolling out updates that might give us most of the features of cars on software 4+ eventually.

What exactly are we missing out on regarding V4? My only real gripe on V3.2 is the infotainment boot up time, and that won’t change without new hardware.

[sidehaas]

So logical. Thank you for that. Do we get SW 4 someday or is that in other models, I wonder.

I don't think anyone knows for sure but the general presumption now seems to be that cars built with 3.x or earlier won't get 4+ because it operates on different hardware. However VW have said OTA updates are continuing and they are developing an OTA to 3.7 at the moment. I suppose theoretically they could keep rolling out updates that might give us most of the features of cars on software 4+ eventually.

What exactly are we missing out on regarding V4? My only real gripe on V3.2 is the infotainment boot up time, and that won’t change without new hardware.

As far as I can tell the main things are:
- it's faster (very slick to operate rather than a bit laggy). That's down to the hardware.
- layout improvements with customisable shortcuts along the top and bottom (for example, to the screen with lane assist on). That's software, but might be difficult to implement on a 10 inch screen.
- back-lit sliders. That's hardware.
- battery preheating. This is the bit everyone wants really. The battery preheating system in software 4.0 looks like the best available in any EV. It can work either manually or automatically via the route planner and tells you live info about what charging power the car is capable of taking at the current SoC and temperature, plus how long it would take to preheat to optimum temperature and what kw you could then get.
- the navigation also has some other improvements, and you can get the Spotify app. I'm not sure of other stuff.

[Benjiturp]

Hi all,

So today I did a full run from 100% to see what the battery degradation might be, and was pretty interesting seeing how energy was used over time. For background, July 2022 car with 25,500 miles, I believe 2.4 software, 2 of us in the car, 8°C on average, running in Eco mode and B on the drive selector. Used very little heating if any at all.

I covered 178 miles in total from the Wrexham area to Anglesey mostly along dual carriage way mostly cruising at 65mph with cruise control, using 93% of the battery. Efficiency was 4.0 at the end but flitting between that and 3.9. 19 miles were remaining on the range indicator, so total range for the battery is 192-198 miles.

This calculates that around 12% of the battery capacity has been lost when calculating against 58kWh, so a fair chunk which is a bit concerning. But considering the lack of decimal places for % and kWh this isn't completely accurate and if the consumption figure is generous then just a 0.1 change can make a big be difference to calculated degradation (e.g., 3.8 kWh would suggest 10% degradation).

In terms of discharge behaviour, I lost 2% of charge by the time I got to the end of my road, and 3% total loss after 3 miles. I recorded miles covered at 10% battery intervals.

16 miles @ 90%
37 miles @ 80%
55 miles @ 70%
72 miles @ 60%
91 miles @ 50%
109 miles @ 40%
122 miles @ 30%
141 miles @ 20%
170 miles @ 10%
179 miles @ 7% (19 miles remaining on the guage)

So a few thoughts on this.

- Deg appears quite high but then I don't know how the battery was used by the previous owner.
- With degradation in mind, is this acceptable as I have the car on a good monthly price (0% APR)?
- Energy loss in the first 3 miles is high suggesting the battery heater was running, or something else (no cabin heating at this time).
- Does anyone know whether the efficiency read out is accurate or similar to ICE cars which tend to over-estimate, as my efficiency today seemed a bit too good for the conditions.